[Path-Shaper]

Serc and I continue our discussion. I like this alt146 guy. He is legit and doesn't afraid of anything.

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So Tellan is Mental, Ano is DiBs, Tehol is Omtose and Amp I would wager is M45 cos he joined late.

Think Tennes is Vengey - since Morgy mentioned he's a dirty boy (his words not mine lol) he's a lot easier to alt

Dont really know bout any of the others, Khell disappeared as I started playing so I got no idea who he plays with and most of the others are reasonably recent imports from other boards. Must say Shin is playing way better this time, noone has come across as noob this game.

Also, any new thoughts on the manager. Sorry to keep asking, but other than Ment you're the only person who's used it for a reasonable amount of time. It's damn slow when I use it, but I cant be sure if that's not just my crappy Saffer internet.

This isn't Bent but the manager has so far been snappy and responsive (NOT slow) and easy to use. Yes it's not glamorous or anything, but it doesn't need to be.

I'm actually a computer programmer who has a morbid fascination with "sweet-looking" software but let's face it, users want software that WORKS first. The glitz and glam can come second and should be nothing more than a slick veneer on the underlying functionality.

Right, so it is just my crappy interwebs then. Cool. Gonna put in a little javascript sometime to speed it up a little (and do one or two more cool things too) sometime soon anyway.

Sixty's still alive, so I assume you're some other programmer. Dunno if you've done anything with php/javascript/SQL but any tips and tricks would be appreciated. The only web-based languages I've ever done officially was C#, SQL and a little javascript all in one semester so I've taught or retaught myself pretty much everthing that's in the program. Though a couple of my ComSci friends gave me some pointers when I got stuck.

And yeah, good looking has never been one of my strong-points. Being a computer engineer (emphasis on the engineer) most of the programming courses we did was more focused on algorithm development and functionality than HMI, since you can always get someone else to wrap your program in shinyness

Correct, I am not Sixty.

I'm actually almost exclusively a Windows client developer with virtually zero web experience. Pretty lousy for a resume, huh? Just how my work's fallen the last couple of years...

I use C# and .NET technology (my current project is a big system developed with WPF). PHP/js are totally not me, but I do have some SQL experience (it's TSQL not MySQL) because it's hard to be a developer and not have some ability to work with a database. Anyway, don't look to me for pointers.

Design is a funny beast, but while the utility is king, the design can make or break your product in a sea of competitors, or it can also give your users a certain feeling about using your software, that it is not a chore to log in, etc. I voraciously consume any designer-for-developer stuff I can, such as this one from Robby Ingebretson : http://videos.visitmix.com/MIX09/02W

Hehe, sounds like we come from pretty different backgrounds then. I'm way more of an open-source supporter, but visual studio was actually pretty sweet. And MSDN is/was awesome. But licencing fees are a bitch, specially when you'e just mucking around. PHP is a bit of a pain - you have to do damn near everything by hand. I'm actually amazed that stuff like the forum is written in it, but you can get php and mysql running on pretty much any machine in under 10 minutes so big plus there.

Personally I think everything should be written in C++, but that's just me.

Well as far as I know I'm pretty short on competitors at the moment, but if you have any design related suggestions you're welcome to let me know.

Anyway's I need to be heading to bed, mafia nad having to get up at 5:30 are not a good mix. Cheers.

Tennes gets an idea about who might be Fener's partner. He doesn't think it was me!

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I just had a thought. I can't remember who but some one said that they thought that kesso was the real finder not fen. That person might be feners partner. I am on the phone so I can't look it up right now. Just an idea

Note: He is wrong, but the person in question is Ampelas, from this snipped quote in the main game thread:

Ampelas, on Apr 28 2009, 02:05 PM, said:

So far, I think Kesso, who may or may not have a hidden partner, was the real finder, and his find on Fener of innocent was just a symp turning up as he would normally turn up.

[Slick Mongoose]

Yes, Serc is playing well.

Anomandaris, on Apr 28 2009, 10:12 PM, said:

The only thing that makes me wonder is if there was only one killer remaing why leave a guard in the open? tempted to change my vote and go for someone else. if fener was the symp, i think we need to look at gamelon.

Go Anomandaris!

[Path-Shaper]

From the Main Game Thread...
Ano/DiBs is completely wrong in his reasoning... but may have still reached a useful conclusion! But will he follow through with it?

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ok, just found something disturbing, spoke to bent and because i asked nicely he told me there was no evil guard, therefore mockra was actually a killer. I really should have clarified this but didnt think (given the title of bents bouncer and my own darkwatch's bouncer) and that meant (assuming not 3 killers) that driss couldnt be the solo killer. now if people think there where three scum and 1 symp shadow could be the killer, if not then he cannot actually be the killer.

Unless bent is fucking with me and because mockra is dead there isnt an evil guard now.

we guarded shadow night 3 and driss night 4 and blocked tellan last night.

no matter what way i look at it now, we have had two symps. meanas and either fener or kessobahn.

The only thing that makes me wonder is if there was only one killer remaing why leave a guard in the open? tempted to change my vote and go for someone else. if fener was the symp, i think we need to look at gamelon.

[Path-Shaper]

Shadow you are so right it is scary.

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Oh dear, I think I've largely brought this upon myself.

I just wanted to keep everyone aware of everyone else, is that so wrong? I highly doubt I'll escape this.

Unless....I fake-reveal! Yes, that's it, fake-reveal! And manage to somehow pick out the killer! There's no way that could go wrong.

What do you mean it has before?

You even brought it up earlier in the game thread. Put it together! Realize that I/Kesso was a faker! Use your power to finger someone culpable!

[Slick Mongoose]

Path-Shaper, on Apr 28 2009, 10:22 PM, said:

Shadow you are so right it is scary.

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Oh dear, I think I've largely brought this upon myself.

I just wanted to keep everyone aware of everyone else, is that so wrong? I highly doubt I'll escape this.

Unless....I fake-reveal! Yes, that's it, fake-reveal! And manage to somehow pick out the killer! There's no way that could go wrong.

What do you mean it has before?

You even brought it up earlier in the game thread. Put it together! Realize that I/Kesso was a faker! Use your power to finger someone culpable!

He can't fake-reveal as finder without my code.

From the thread:

Ampelas, on Apr 28 2009, 10:24 PM, said:

Shadow, on Apr 28 2009, 05:04 PM, said:

*another ironic snip*

As I said, a genius plan. But how over-elaborate is this? How many tracks do the evils have to cover, how many fake paths do they have to make here? It simply doesn't happen. The simplest answer is almost always the correct one, and this is by no means simple. It's just way too complex, with too many variables - things that could have gone wrong - for it to be all planned and executed so nicely.

And, if you believe this theory, what then about Fener's claim that Gamelon, his other find, is inno? Does that still hold? Because I believe that Fener was a real finder, I also believe that Gamelon is inno (or, at least, was not a killer, at the time). As I said, there are just too many strands here.

Ah, Occam's Razor. Bullshit. Occam was a medieval fool for whom the simplest answer that fit the facts was either, God did it, or the witch down the street with the mole on her nose did it, burn her. Besides which, this is Mafia, the simplest answer should always be more complex, esp. for scum in a meat n' taters game. They'll intentionally try to make things more complex, and if ANY of them know each other, they can pull it off. The only really important strands are Fener, who the new killer probably wouldn't know was a symp, and whoever the new killer is. Just got called for dinner, I'll respond to this more later.

Occam's razor is a very useful tool, particularly in mafia.

[Path-Shaper]

Right now I'm really intrigued by Ano/DiBs' play. He's basically made the following case:

• Mockra was scum, clearly indicated by his lynch.
  
• Meanas/Gem was a symp, so believed due to her self-claim (although I guess he doesn't believe Serc was the partner?)
  
• Fener or Kesso was a symp, believed due to the oddity of early game double reveal.
  • If it was Kesso, then Fener is a finder and Gamelon is OK
    
  • If it was Fener, then Kesso is a finder and Gamelon is potentially the other killer (Fener was trying to clear his master before his death is the assumed reasoning)
  
  
• In either of the above cases, Ano is confident that three scum are dead (1 killer 2 symps)
  • If there were THREE symps at the start, then two are dead and 1 killer is dead, so there are two TWO killers left, and that means a Guard action cannot be trusted.
    • Thus, Shadow should be killed because he was guarded and someone still died (indicating paired killers, Shadow presumably one of them due to his accusational style of play)
  • If there were only TWO symps, then both are dead and 1 killer is dead, so there is ONE killer left, and that means a Guard action CAN be trusted.
    • Thus, Shadow and Tellan and D'riss are CI because all three have been guarded since Meanas (the second symp) died.
      
    • By extension, if Fener is the presumed second symp, then Gamelon is the appropriate lynch.
      
    • Not sure what his thoughts are if Kesso was the symp with two killers as it would seem to clear Shadow AND Gamelon.

I think the most amusing thing here is that Ano/DiBs is 100% wrong in every portion of his analysis, and yet may still end up at the right conclusion (lynch Gamelon) which puts the game into a one-killer approach and if Ano metas correctly after Gamelon dies (or Telas metas correctly and reveals), Tennes will be blocked and killed and then it's up to Ruse to try and win on his own... a VERY tall order. (Keep in mind Omtose will die tonight so it's likely to be one guard vs one killer tomorrow if this all pans out).

I guess if you are on a circle and you go completely backwards, eventually you'll end up at the same place you would have if you had gone completely forward.

[Path-Shaper]

Bent, Ano's asking more questions for you (underlined):

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I should have asked this earlier, but was mockra actually just an evil guard or was he a killer? you told me there couldnt be an evil guard, now i think i have been bvarking up the wrong tree.

Since you are asking nicely. I will tell you. There is no evil gaurd.

so mockra was justa killer??

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I should have asked this earlier, but was mockra actually just an evil guard or was he a killer? you told me there couldnt be an evil guard, now i think i have been bvarking up the wrong tree.

Since you are asking nicely. I will tell you. There is no evil gaurd.

did a symp upgrade then when mockra died, or do they only upgrade with the death of the last symp, and just what is with gem. if shadow is evil (and i still think its a big possibiility but i need to feed out rope for a partner then gem really did screw her team.

[Path-Shaper]

Shadow goes with Ano's idea, but ends up with the wrong conclusions. I think you fucked up when you didn't realize I merely tried to ensure Mockra's lynch!

Shadow, on Apr 28 2009, 06:29 PM, said:

Anomandaris, on Apr 28 2009, 10:46 PM, said:

@shadow - a comment about the possible distribution of evil would be useful.

as far as i can tell we have removed 3 scum, mockra defo scum. meanas defo symp. either fener or kess as both couldnt be finders as that would make three finders (fener claimed partner.) if people think 2 killers 2 symps we have a solo killer left and thats it. If people think 3 killers 2 symps, or 2 killers 3 symps we still have 2 scum but still have a massive numbers advantage and really have to work hard to lose this.

Very well, my thoughts:

Mockra - killer
Meanas - symp
Kesso - symp

I think team evil fucked up when they killed Kesso. He was a symp trying to get a run at becoming killer and being PIed at the same time.

Now, if the above is accurate, it cannot have started with 2 killers, 2 symps. This is because Meanas would have become a killer on Mockra's death (Kessobahn, the other symp, already being dead). But Meanas was CFed inno, meaning she remained a symp.

That means, presumably, there were more symps to begin with than killers. Another symp, not Meanas and not Kesso, became a killer. We can't be sure how many killers we started off with, but I think we can be reasonably sure, from the above, that there were more symps than killers to begin with.

So: Can't be 1 killer, 2 symps, because on Mockra and Kesso's death, Meanas would have become killer, but didn't.
Can't be 2 killers, 2 symps, because of what was outlined above.

Could be 1 killer, 3 symps. In this model, that would mean there is only one killer and no symps left.

Do people think we could have started off with more than four evils?

2 killers, 3 symps (meaning now remaining 2 killers, 1 symp), or 1 killer 4 symps (meaning now remaining 1 killer, 2 symps)?

I don't think we would have started off with more than two killers, but it could be an outside chance.

Edit: changed 'clear' to 'killer' - tard episode.

Boy I'm gonna be piping mad if innos lose over my move.

[Slick Mongoose]

Path-Shaper, on Apr 28 2009, 11:43 PM, said:

Boy I'm gonna be piping mad if innos lose over my move.

I think you did the right thing. No symp would betray their master like you, surely, and it was definitely going to get you night killed, so why do it if evil? The best assumption would be that you were a 3rd finder, unlikely though that may be.

Assuming Meanas was a symp, though, is probably sensible.

[Gem Windcaster]

Slick Mongoose, on Apr 28 2009, 10:54 PM, said:

Assuming Meanas was a symp, though, is probably sensible.

Yes indeed.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 29 April 2009 - 12:21 AM

[Path-Shaper]

I just cleared everything up in thread. Also responded to Dibs. Were this more than meat and taters, I wouldn't have answered, however, I made both the killers and the gaurds bouncers, so I take the blame on the confusion in the first place.

[Path-Shaper]

Telas wants to investigate Ano... the WRONG person again.

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Provisional on Anomandaris please.

Ruse/Malaese is pretty bent out of shape. I understand why you 'cleared things up' but in his mind, you've only helped the innocents.

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I'd like to respectfully petition for you to stop giving information to Ano via PM's. He's using it to try and figure out the game, rather than play it.

[Path-Shaper]

Also, you're a dick, Bent! You know I had nothing to do with any confusion!

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One more thing to note - send any and all complaints to peanutbutta's regular account. I repeat, do not send complaints to me - I wont respond or argue.

~Bent

[Peanutbutta]

Ruse/Malaese ! Bent you suck!

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Quit fucking up our game dick!

[Path-Shaper]

Ruse/Malaese states the obvious and is now going to try and play the hero. Also, you're still a dick, Bent.

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I'd like to respectfully petition for you to stop giving information to Ano via PM's. He's using it to try and figure out the game, rather than play it.

And I told you to send it to peanutbutta not me. Also, I posted in thread for fairness, so play your game and deal with it.

~Bent

I sent this off before I got to that point in the thread and I sent a scathing e-mail at Pb.

For SH:
Since this could be the turning point in the game I just want to say to my team very well played, we were cruising to an easy victory as they were completely barking up the wrong trees. I wouldn't have killed Ano last night either because guards don't matter with paired killers, I chose Shadow jic I got kill, but who knew the case would turn on him today! Without an unfortunate turn of meta-play it was in the bag, ship it! Time to see if I can salvage it.

Tennes/Veng metas the remaining symp(s), but gets it wrong. However, note that he understands there's no way I was a symp.

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Is shadow our symp.... I am wondering this because he hasn't targetted either me or you and he has gone after almost everyone. He is calling Kesso a symp. There is no way that Kesso was a symp. Why would a symp reveal as a finder to back up another finder to get his killer lynched. It just doesn't make any sense. But before I go on and lay that out which might get him lynched I wanted to know what you thought about it. Plus look at what Shadow is doing he called Anoman out as a possible killer. Which is what I was hoping would happen when we didn't kill him. I think that perhaps we should sit back and see what Shadow is doing and were he is going with his defense. Tomorrow if Shadow can hold off the lynch I will bring Emu back up and see were that goes.

Telas/Shin airs his thoughts. I give him a pep talk to stay in the game. No I do not give him any hints whatsoever.

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I thought I'd share what I'm going through, for your interest (and spoilers thread followers if you want).

First, learning the dynamics of this game is not easy. I still feel like I'm stumbling a bit blind, not having prior experience to better analyze the flow of play.

My thoughts, probably laughable and erroneous, but anyways:

The fact that Anomandaris wasn't killed and a low contributing poster was, suggests to me that the killers are more interested in finding Fener's partner (me) than taking out Ano. If true, this suggests an elaborate setup involving at least one individual who is actively contributing and want's to remain "inno" in plain sight. Prime suspects: Ano himself and Shadow.

If Ano is scum, then so is Omtose who seems to quite obviously be Ano's partner (paired killers, making an elaborate PM structure). It's such a fucking bold play, that I find it hard to believe...which is why I actually believe it's possible. Killers being able to PM each other could allow something this bold.

In a way, I'm hoping the lynch of Shadow goes through, because then this takes care of the other "in plain site" suspect.

If both Ano and Shadow come up Inno, I'm back to square one, but I feel a find on Ano will also prove the identity of Omtose, so I rather like this find since it will actually clear (or catch) 2 players in one go.

If indeed all 3 (shadow, ano, om) are innocent, Emurlahn is my #1 suspect with Tellan #2.

The bad part of this scenario is, I'm not sure I'll live 2 more nights. I think I may be ok tonight, so tonights find is important. But I doubt I'll live to do 2 more finds, unless the killers decide they have to get rid of Ano/Omtose. Depending on what happens as a result of today as well as what is happening during the next day, I can see myself revealing even if I don't have a guilty find.

If Shadow is NOT lynched, and Ano is inno, Shadow has to remain a suspect. If scum, his hiding in plain site is less elaborate and therefore possibly more doable.

So, my worst case scenario is:

Ano is innocent, Shadow isn't lynched and we lynch a different inno. This would mean I still have the biggest pool of suspects (Shadow, Emur, Tellan etc). The only thing I would have accomplished is confirm Ano and Omtose as ok. Which if they're guards, isn't such a bad thing because then a reveal would at least lend them some credibility power.

Another bad thing would be if the killers decided to use 1 night to try for the finder, and if they failed then they would take out Ano (tonight). That would blow my entire theory up and I"d have to start looking at the cruisers and hope I"m not killed.

My head is spinning.

Ok, I'm not going to edit this PM, so its possible it makes no sense whatsoever. Meh.

Shin,

You need to understand that this game is designed to make your head spin. I am not here to give you any kind of insight as to how correct or incorrect any of your thoughts are, but I want you to know that your thought processes are invaluable. Here's why.

• If you are totally correct, then think about how this game can be used at a later point in time to talk about how one should play and reason as a finder.
  
• If you are totally wrong, then think about how this game can be used later a later point in time to demonstrate how one should deceive and act as a killer.
  
• If you are partially right and partially wrong, then think about how this game can be used later to highlight the good and bad parts about trying to hone your insight.

No, it's not easy to play essentially the hardest job in the game. You have to simultaneously figure out where to direct your focus so that you aren't wasting time while also passing off that information to the masses without giving yourself up, a move which typically results in a swift death for the finder.

It's like you say, when/if should you reveal? Do you tell everyone who you are and what you found and hope your death has some meaning? Do you hope the killers aren't looking for you or think that they already killed all of the finders? How do you let it run its course?

One thing you will probably realize is that, ultimately, your PMs are more instrumental to your own success in the game. They give you a place to organize your thoughts and say them 'out loud' without any pressure. Sure they are highly entertaining pieces of information for those of us who are watching from the rafters, but wouldn't you like to look back and note your own mistakes and successes?

So please don't be down on yourself for your performance, understand that you are currently still alive in a game that is sitting at half of its starting roster. The game hasn't ended so you know you need to keep looking. Continue to hunt for clues and make your best educated guesses. Don't be afraid to guess and then later second-guess or change your mind, and don't be afraid to roll the dice and stand your ground on your original guesses, either.

We're really glad to have you here, and hope you'll continue to play and feed us your thoughts on a continual basis.

-PB (who is only playing his third game)

Also, I want to note how obvious it was for Shin, on his second game, to realize Omtose was Ano's partner after the recent lovefest. Talk about a mistake by Tehol!

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 29 April 2009 - 03:31 AM

[Path-Shaper]

Tennes is frustrated with the sudden attention he is receiving. Note he really wants to bury the guards fast and then Ruse (obviously a mistake), but that's 3 NAs away. If the support for Gamelon builds the killers may not be able to coast this one out after all. Question: What happens when Omtose and Ano both die? Who gets suspected suddenly after Ruse points out that Ano being alive is clear indication that there are paired killers.

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Were has your name came up from all of a sudden. I see several people mentioning it all of a sudden. You were in the free and clear but now Omtose (can't die quick enough) is talking about making a case on you. I don't get it. First Omtose then Anomandaris then I am thinking Ruse.

[HoosierDaddy]

Come on team scum!

[Kurt Montandon]

Huh - you know, going back over the mechanics, I have to say that the Guards are pointless.

Seriously, they can't Guard paired Killers ... and with each Killer having a backup, that really stacks the odds against ever having a single Killer to Guard.

[Path-Shaper]

Telas/Shin changes his mind... I see why he'd pick Emur (coasters), but it's still barking up the wrong tree.

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Provisional on Anomandaris please.

Noted

Ok, what Ruse wrote about paired killers getting past guard makes a lot more sense than the BS I just spouted.

Please change my action and put a provisional on Emurlahn.

Thank you.

It is changed to Emurlahn.

Ruse discusses his strategy on trying to symp Telles and hope he doesn't get killed. Currently Veng is planning on killing Ruse in 2 nights, but he's played well so far. Will he pick up the clue before then?

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For SH:

Let's hope Tennes is with me because he figured out I'm his symp and not because he is going to kill me tonight! Still annoyed I had to expose the gameplay to attempt a get us(them) back on the right(wrong) track. Hopefully Shadow gets lynched comes up inno and I can point to his clearing me. Ano has to die tonight probably and it should be a win. We'll have half the vote to lynch tommorrow as long as we don't over play it and Gamelon can skate his Day 5 suspicion. lala~

[Path-Shaper]

Kurt Montandon, on Apr 29 2009, 12:11 AM, said:

Huh - you know, going back over the mechanics, I have to say that the Guards are pointless.

Seriously, they can't Guard paired Killers ... and with each Killer having a backup, that really stacks the odds against ever having a single Killer to Guard.

PB here.

I agree that guards are just too weak with the pairing of killers. Then again, innos started this game with the advantage (I'd have thought 5 or 6 scum in a 23 player M&T game), so scum has to catch a bit of a break.

Simply put, the guards are super powerful if they kill off one killer 'line' (in this case, finishing off Mockra's line by lynching Gamelon).

If anything else, they are a distraction away from Telas who, while still on the wrong track, seems to have at least 2 more nights after this one to find some killers.