[amphibian]

Read the Harris Durrani articles and see if you change your minds a bit.

There is a phenomenon of taking a work of art (usually a book or comic) that is intensely built upon a particular culture and then losing some of what makes it special by blending out the culture. Ghost in the Shell is an intensely Japanese techno-uncertain work in manga with bold/bizarre bits of humor and comedy. It was turned into an animated movie that remained intensely Japanese and moved mostly out of comedy into being a look at what identity means in a digital age where corruption, disregard for caring for others, isolation, carrying on a life through distance and uncertainty, gender roles/signaling, and how cohesion through work can develop are all being shown to us.

Then after the TV series, an American version was made in which the actors and writers reflected an overall desire to move Ghost in the Shell as a general story out of Japanese culture and into something unmemorably diverse and unmoored from the intense attachment to Japanese culture of the time Shirow that gave much meaning to the story. All of the Japanese detectives in the original became visual characters without much cohesive or understandable meaning. It is quite possible to move a story out of the culture that underpins the story with success, but the 2017 movie didn't do that and I think the big reasons why rest in not having Japanese writers/producers/actors who could expertly facilitate that transition. I don't actually think Johansson's casting was a problem - Motoko is meant to be put into a relatively generic shell. The moving of the detectives around Johansson into being a world tour cast was a bigger problem. They should all have been Japanese because there's certain themes of what it means for Japanese people to enthusiastically, reluctantly, or unwittingly enforce the old order upon a society that is not staying within the old order anymore.

The same phenomenon happened to Dune the movies and shows.

There is a balance that I think was not achieved in the recent movies of respecting and including MENA people in a story that is based heavily on their history, culture, fashion, language, and more - even if it's happening in a far future way. Those who read the books, know the history, who are or have friends and family who are MENA can see even through the far future sci fi lens what this story was built on.

Would you be skeptical of or disappointed in a movie that took the Ojibwe creation myth of Turtle Island, fast-forwarded it 70,000 years to the future, cast no Ojibwe actors, had no Ojibwe writers or producers, changed the Ojibwe language to something else, and still had a couple characters speaking Latin?

[amphibian]

And I do actually think The Odyssey should feature some Greek actors, writers, and producers. I am not calling for a boycott, but I think taking a foundational history or story from a culture without making some from the culture meaningfully better is not a great thing to do.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 10 July 2026 - 02:52 PM

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 10 July 2026 - 02:39 PM, said:

And I do actually think The Odyssey should feature some Greek actors, writers, and producers. I am not calling for a boycott, but I think taking a foundational history or story from a culture without making some from the culture meaningfully better is not a great thing to do.

I would argue that Emily Wilson's translation is fine to use as she has a literal phD in Classics, where Homer's work was a speciality. I don't personally like it (she uses modern syntax and that annoys me), but she's as good a scholar as you'll find on the subject. I don't know why you would need anyone of Greek origins this far from Greek antiquity to comment on something like this when a scholar on the subject is the top of the heap for knowledge. It matters not that she's not greek. Modern Greeks are not the Greeks of Classical antiquity, the warring states of the region at the time and how they eventually spread out are proof enough of that. Homer could genetically have more in common with modern Italians or Turks than Greeks...In fact Homer's reported birthplace is in modern Turkey not modern Greece.

I would also argue, as an example that I would rather Mary Beard should be used to do accurate Ancient Rome media projects over someone who is also simply Italian...Anicent Rome and modern Italy as as far from each other culturally as it gets...so what would behoove me to not want one of the most preeminent scholars on the subject on the project?

Actors? Sure. but again we fall into the notion of "Do we cast only Greeks, or do we cast diversely for actors sake in 2026"? Which feels silly to me in this day and age. Cast whoever. The best version of part of this story is THE RETURN which stars a Brit and a French woman, and a cast that varies from African, to Greek, to Scandinavian, to Spanish. Written by a Scot, and directed by an Italian.

Writers? See above about Emily Wilson.

I fail to see why producers race would ever be important. That's a strange statement.

Now make no mistake, Nolans The Odyssey annoys me for other reasons, but they are rooted in my desire for a more accurate historical presentation of the lands (AKA the North Sea will never look like the Mediterranean ) which I feel should be present in stories of greek myth. and Pants. Greeks didn't wear pants. But it's mythology so I digress.

[amphibian]

A book's writer is a different situation from a many hundreds of millions dollar film featuring hundreds of actors, hundreds of film workers, being shot in many different locations across the world, and being touted as a great rendition of the classic Greek story.


Looking up the cast and crew:
The Odyssey also did have a Greek line producer for Greece. They hired Greek workers for the Greek locations. There aren't any main cast Greek actors. There aren't any Greek writers.

Also, I didn't say race - I said I think some of the actors, writers, producers etc should be Greek because this is a Greek story and this is an international production with enormous resources behind it. I think that is a fair statement and I'm not expecting a school children production of the Iliad somewhere in the world to feature someone who is Greek, yet there's a way to deliver cultural connections, acknowledgement, and enthusiasm without taking it wholesale and perhaps removing what cultural parts made the story so powerful.

The social thing we probably both mean by race is not a great part of any country or culture. It's also a bad way to describe a person or a group. I am a white passing person born in Nepal as a dual citizen. I live in the US as a citizen of the US only now. What race am I?

This post has been edited by amphibian: 10 July 2026 - 04:57 PM

[Chance]

QuickTidal, on 10 July 2026 - 03:33 PM, said:

Now make no mistake, Nolans The Odyssey annoys me for other reasons, but they are rooted in my desire for a more accurate historical presentation of the lands (AKA the North Sea will never look like the Mediterranean ) which I feel should be present in stories of greek myth. and Pants. Greeks didn't wear pants. But it's mythology so I digress.

Annoys is the right word.

I was hyped when I heard Nolan was going to do the Odyssey, but it doesn't look like it takes place in the Mediterranean, it doesn't look like it should from costume to sets in the era it takes place, greyscale just isn't ancient times and the modern language is just salt in the wound.

I'll still watch it but I won't buy a ticket to the cinemas unless it has serious good word of mouth.

This post has been edited by Chance: 11 July 2026 - 12:43 PM

[QuickTidal]

I’ll probably buy a ticket for cinemas as it looks like it might really still be epic…but I’ll be grumbly about it.

[Illuyankas]

I won't be watching a Nolan movie in a cinema until he stops mixing his sound like shit, he basically makes subtitles mandatory for me

[QuickTidal]

 Illuyankas, on 12 July 2026 - 06:14 PM, said:

I won't be watching a Nolan movie in a cinema until he stops mixing his sound like shit, he basically makes subtitles mandatory for me

Yes, 100% this. It’s become almost meme like with him having shit sound mixes.

[QuickTidal]

Finally saw PROJECT HAIL MARY.

Perfect. It felt like movies used to feel in so many ways. REALLY enjoyed it.

[QuickTidal]

Stephen Chow has made a spiritual sequel to 2001's SHAOLIN SOCCER with KUNG FU SOCCER (Chinese title direct translation is KUNG FU WOMEN'S SOCCER), and though he's not in it, and it might not land as jokey as the original (Cantonese comedy hits different) I'm still super excited to see it!

[Tiste Simeon]

 QuickTidal, on 13 July 2026 - 11:53 AM, said:

Finally saw PROJECT HAIL MARY.

Perfect. It felt like movies used to feel in so many ways. REALLY enjoyed it.

I'm planning on watching soon do I need to have read the book?

[QuickTidal]

Tiste Simeon, on 13 July 2026 - 02:58 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 13 July 2026 - 11:53 AM, said:

Finally saw PROJECT HAIL MARY.

Perfect. It felt like movies used to feel in so many ways. REALLY enjoyed it.

I'm planning on watching soon do I need to have read the book?

Nah, you're fine to just watch it.

And quite frankly, the author of the book showed his ass on the marketing tour for the movie so you're better off with just the movie.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 13 July 2026 - 03:53 PM, said:

..., the author of the book showed his ass on the marketing tour for the movie so you're better off with just the movie.

google fails me, what happened?

[Tiste Simeon]

He dropped his trousers and yelled "look at my butt"

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 13 July 2026 - 04:23 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 13 July 2026 - 03:53 PM, said:

..., the author of the book showed his ass on the marketing tour for the movie so you're better off with just the movie.

google fails me, what happened?

"Weir has faced online backlash for his outspoken dislike of social commentary in fiction. He has also made statements attributing the commercial underperformance of Artemis to forced diversity or "woke" trends in media, which has drawn ire from readers who argue that his own books actually contain prominent social commentary."

"Weir made headlines when he appeared on the Critical Drinker (Ooof, right wing podcaster; red flag already) After Hours podcast and criticized the modern Star Trek franchise. During the appearance, he revealed a failed pitch he had with executive producer Alex Kurtzman and suggested that his own hit sci-fi film, Project Hail Mary, was succeeding where Star Trek was failing. He claimed that "political commentary was not needed or desired for successful Star Trek and that his childhood watching the OG show was just "Fun action"....it's about the worst take on Trek I've heard. The remarks drew public pushback from other authors, prompting Weir to issue a public apology to Kurtzman."

So, PHM is a solid story written by a seemingly right leaning dude who didn't know when to shut up and completely misunderstands Star Trek to boot.

Typical Boomer/Gen X "I didn't understand the media I consumed" nonsense.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: Yesterday, 04:59 PM

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 13 July 2026 - 04:58 PM, said:

Abyss, on 13 July 2026 - 04:23 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 13 July 2026 - 03:53 PM, said:

..., the author of the book showed his ass on the marketing tour for the movie so you're better off with just the movie.

google fails me, what happened?

"Weir has faced online backlash for his outspoken dislike of social commentary in fiction. He has also made statements attributing the commercial underperformance of Artemis to forced diversity or "woke" trends in media, which has drawn ire from readers who argue that his own books actually contain prominent social commentary."

"Weir made headlines when he appeared on the Critical Drinker (Ooof, right wing podcaster; red flag already) After Hours podcast and criticized the modern Star Trek franchise. During the appearance, he revealed a failed pitch he had with executive producer Alex Kurtzman and suggested that his own hit sci-fi film, Project Hail Mary, was succeeding where Star Trek was failing. He claimed that "political commentary was not needed or desired for successful Star Trek and that his childhood watching the OG show was just "Fun action"....it's about the worst take on Trek I've heard. The remarks drew public pushback from other authors, prompting Weir to issue a public apology to Kurtzman."

So, PHM is a solid story written by a seemingly right leaning dude who didn't know when to shut up and completely misunderstands Star Trek to boot.

Typical Boomer/Gen X "I didn't understand the media I consumed" nonsense.

oh gods, he's one of those 'sTar TRek shOUldnt be puhlITICAL (except when it agrees with me / what do you mean it was always political?!)' guys.

[polishgenius]

Nah, he's not, I don't think he's conservative (despite appearing on Critical Drinker- I hold that against him, but I don't think he actually knew who CD was). He's just obvlivious to the world to a painful degree.

I haven't seen the entire Critical Drinker segment so I could be wrong but when I combine the quotes there with others he made a few years ago, I don't think his claim is that there wasn't any politics/social commentary in old Star Trek- it's that when he was a kid he just ignored or didn't see it and he doesn't think it needs to be included now to feel like classic Star Trek. It's still a terrible take, don't get me wrong, but it's the take of someone who genuinely thinks he doesn't write social/political commentary himself when his most recent book that is now a movie is about the world working together to solve a major climate crisis.


Of course if others see his comments in another light I don't blame them.

[worry]

What a Weir D'oh!

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

QuickTidal, on 13 July 2026 - 04:58 PM, said:

"Weir has faced online backlash for his outspoken dislike of social commentary in fiction. He has also made statements attributing the commercial underperformance of Artemis to forced diversity or "woke" trends in media, which has drawn ire from readers who argue that his own books actually contain prominent social commentary."

"Weir made headlines when he appeared on the Critical Drinker (Ooof, right wing podcaster; red flag already) After Hours podcast and criticized the modern Star Trek franchise. During the appearance, he revealed a failed pitch he had with executive producer Alex Kurtzman and suggested that his own hit sci-fi film, Project Hail Mary, was succeeding where Star Trek was failing. He claimed that "political commentary was not needed or desired for successful Star Trek and that his childhood watching the OG show was just "Fun action"....it's about the worst take on Trek I've heard. The remarks drew public pushback from other authors, prompting Weir to issue a public apology to Kurtzman."

So, PHM is a solid story written by a seemingly right leaning dude who didn't know when to shut up and completely misunderstands Star Trek to boot.

Typical Boomer/Gen X "I didn't understand the media I consumed" nonsense.

Link for that? The sources I've found discussing the Critical Drinker podcast don't include that claim about the original series, but several do cite a 2018 Futurism interview in which he said:

Quote

"For instance, as a lifelong Star Trek fan, it's always bothered me that there is a presumed 'responsibility' within Star Trek shows to talk about social issues," the writer added. "I just want to watch Romulans and the Federation shoot at each other."

https://gizmodo.com/...ount-2000739724

So whoever wrote what you're quoting seems to be confusing that with the idea that OG Star Trek didn't allude to social issues.

Search didn't turn anything recent about his politics in terms of Democrat or Republican, though in 2012 he claimed that he's socially liberal and fiscally conservative. Bleh.

Another possibility:

Quote

He's identified a market segment who's not likely to respond to the idea of sacrificing to save our dying planet. So he makes the rounds using their favorite rally cry: "anti-woke".

I'm sure he's done the math and decided that the rest of his audience won't abandon him over this alone. So it'll be a net gain.

It's actually the kind of strategy one of his characters might come up with in the same situation.

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