[Tsundoku]

Linked article on NYT ranking Jokers:

https://www.nytimes....ers-ranked.html

[Aptorian]

Nicodimas, on 04 October 2019 - 06:29 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 04 October 2019 - 05:30 PM, said:

Just came back from watching Joker. It's great.

It's grim and unsettling and a great interpretation of the "one bad day" idea. Only it's a lifetime of missery.

When the trailers came out I noted that if they go for a DC version of Michael Douglasses performance in Falling Down it would be great. And that's exactly what they did.

Don't go in expecting a superhero movie or an action film. This is portrayed as a sinister drama. It's a tragedy with a happy ending depending upon your perspective.

I think some people might say the film is too slow, even boring mayby but if you know who the Joker becomes it's captivating. And in the way of Nolan's interpretation of the Batman universe, this fits perfectly into the toned down, more realistic origin take of a crazy mass murderer.

Also the ending is absolutely perfect.

QuickTidal, on 04 October 2019 - 02:23 PM, said:

some key lines from the review that I liked:

“Joker,” an empty, foggy exercise in second-hand style and second-rate philosophizing

Besotted with the notion of its own audacity — as if willful unpleasantness were a form of artistic courage — the film turns out to be afraid of its own shadow, or at least of the faintest shadow of any actual relevance.

It’s hard to say if the muddle “Joker” makes of itself arises from confusion or cowardice, but the result is less a depiction of nihilism than a story about nothing.

I think these people are reading waaay too much into the film. Except for the speech at the end there's no preaching or philosophising in the film. Nor is there any glorifying of gun violence as I've heard some say.

It's a movie that spends a lot of time showing instead of telling. It takes you on a ride with the Joker and at the end you might not be certain who the bad guy is.

In that sense I would say that this is actually a dangerous film. Just like the anonymous yahoos, I can see people watching this film, the crescendo, and getting some terrible ideas. It was certainly evocative I felt.

If people get there core ethos from watching a movie about a villain, they are dumb as f$& .More than likely they are already nuts.

Counterpoint: I hope they run so this version of Gotham as I really enjoyed as it felt like Gotham in the background.

Hard to decipher that last paragraph but I definitely did like the 80s setting. It takes you back to old New York, older movies and older stories, where the idea of masked vigilantes and villains still make some sense.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 04 October 2019 - 07:04 PM

[Aptorian]

Tsundoku, on 04 October 2019 - 06:35 PM, said:

Linked article on NYT ranking Jokers:

https://www.nytimes....ers-ranked.html

I think it'll be hard to compare Phoenix's Joker with the other movie versions, because he's only coming out of the cocoon in this film.

This Joker could turn into anything. Definitely seems less "super" but also less of a mastermind. The performance is second to none I think.

[Nicodimas]

Aptorian, on 04 October 2019 - 07:12 PM, said:

Tsundoku, on 04 October 2019 - 06:35 PM, said:

Linked article on NYT ranking Jokers:

https://www.nytimes....ers-ranked.html

I think it'll be hard to compare Phoenix's Joker with the other movie versions, because he's only coming out of the cocoon in this film.

This Joker could turn into anything. Definitely seems less "super" but also less of a mastermind. The performance is second to none I think.

@apt —>

Spoiler

I like the idea that Arthur is the spark that lights the real joker in the way they handled it .. joker could be numerous.. kinda fun to think about since he has so many origin stories

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 04 October 2019 - 08:58 PM

[polishgenius]

Maark Abbott, on 04 October 2019 - 11:42 AM, said:

If it's flying, it ain't a dinosaur.

Untrue, since birds are dinosaurs.

[amphibian]

Apt, Falling Down has elements of extreme racism within it that I believe you may have missed.

Here's a New Yorker article talking about how The Joker warps certain events in NYC's past that have strong racist elements without truly understanding what happened back then or is happening onscreen: https://www.newyorke...mbing-emptiness

[Aptorian]

amphibian, on 05 October 2019 - 05:25 PM, said:

Apt, Falling Down has elements of extreme racism within it that I believe you may have missed.

Here's a New Yorker article talking about how The Joker warps certain events in NYC's past that have strong racist elements without truly understanding what happened back then or is happening onscreen: https://www.newyorke...mbing-emptiness

Oh I haven't watched Falling Down in over 20 years I think but racism doesn't really change the tale.

Also, I'm not going to read that entire article but like what I wrote in reply to QTs quotes from movie critics, I think your article is so woke it doesn't even know what it's talking about. Central Park five? The gang that attacks the joker is mixed race.

I feel like there's a whole lot of analysis of the film going on that's resulting in the proverbial Death of the Author. Maybe there's some director or writer interviews out there I'm unaware of but the joker movie does not have a lot more depth other than what people read into it.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 05 October 2019 - 08:19 PM

[blackzoid]

Personal preferences on the table, I dont like the Joker having any origin, its much better for me if he is a mysterious force of chaos like in The Dark Knight.
So I was always slightly miffed by the film concept. (I never was a big fan of The Killing Joke for the same reason)

Joker was ok I guess. After all the various takes on this film and what it means for our society its much more ordinary then I expected.
I think Joaquin Phoenix's acting has really elevated this film from what it is. And it is great acting I admit. As far as violence in the film goes, well if anyone here has watched Daredevil/Punisher on Netflix then you wont be shocked by anything at all that this film does.
Its ok 7/10

[amphibian]

Aptorian, on 05 October 2019 - 08:09 PM, said:

Oh I haven't watched Falling Down in over 20 years I think but racism doesn't really change the tale.

What? A white guy in his 30s or 40s with a restraining order against him due to likely domestic violence against his wife fuels his rage into a series of racist assaults on Korean Americans, black people, and goes along with a white supremacist pawn shop owner until the guy breaks the snow globe. He then chases his wife and kid down a pier with a gun and is given eleventy-five chances to put the gun down and just be reasonable. The movie is supposed to satirize this, but it ended up being remembered as the movie about the guy who just melts down against the little rules of life. That's because in its execution, there are problems that leave this movie as a badly retold set of Los Angeles specific events (assaults on Korean shoppwners, Rodney King beating etc). The same thing happens in The Joker.

Quote

Also, I'm not going to read that entire article but like what I wrote in reply to QTs quotes from movie critics, I think your article is so woke it doesn't even know what it's talking about. Central Park five? The gang that attacks the joker is mixed race.

The reason the Central Park Five got framed for the sexual assault of a woman is because there was a group of about thirty mixed race young men who were going around Central Park and beating/robbing people that same day. You missed this because you don't really know what's being referred to here.

Quote

I feel like there's a whole lot of analysis of the film going on that's resulting in the proverbial Death of the Author. Maybe there's some director or writer interviews out there I'm unaware of but the joker movie does not have a lot more depth other than what people read into it.

Which is why your statements about the depth this movie does or doesn't have are absurd. You have little clue as to the specifics.

The movie even does a similar scene as the Goetz shootings. This is a clear sign that they're trying to do this kind of thing - not a Barthes-style "removal of authorial intent" deal.

[D'rek]

I don't get it. It's not like there's any shortage of subway shootings in USA. The article just jumps straight to saying its obviously a re-enactment of a very specific subway shooting with no mention of how/why it links to that particular one instead of a bajllion other possible subway shootings, despite the number of people being different, their ages and races being different, and it happening in Chicago rather than New York?

[amphibian]

D, on 06 October 2019 - 11:05 PM, said:

I don't get it. It's not like there's any shortage of subway shootings in USA. The article just jumps straight to saying its obviously a re-enactment of a very specific subway shooting with no mention of how/why it links to that particular one instead of a bajllion other possible subway shootings, despite the number of people being different, their ages and races being different, and it happening in Chicago rather than New York?

The Goetz shooting is probably the most famous subway shooting in US history.

https://en.m.wikiped...Subway_shooting

Gotham is also a stand-in for NYC.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 07 October 2019 - 12:50 AM

[D'rek]

amphibian, on 07 October 2019 - 12:49 AM, said:

D, on 06 October 2019 - 11:05 PM, said:

I don't get it. It's not like there's any shortage of subway shootings in USA. The article just jumps straight to saying its obviously a re-enactment of a very specific subway shooting with no mention of how/why it links to that particular one instead of a bajllion other possible subway shootings, despite the number of people being different, their ages and races being different, and it happening in Chicago rather than New York?

The Goetz shooting is probably the most famous subway shooting in US history.

https://en.m.wikiped...Subway_shooting

Gotham is also a stand-in for NYC.

Ok, so the facts so far are:
-Joker movie has a subway shooting
-Goetz shooting is the most famous subway shooting

So... does any movie which depicts a subway shooting must definitely be referencing the Goetz shooting?

Gotham isn't a NYC stand-in, Gotham is the DC universe's equivalent of Chicago. Metropolis is the DC NYC.

Didn't the movie Death Wish have a subway shooting, where the vigilante main character shoots two muggers on the subway? Couldn't the scene in Joker be referencing that? After all, both the main character of Death Wish and Joker are white middle-aged "everymen" plus deranged vigilantes who see themselves as heroes? The switch from ordinary muggers assaulting him on the subway to suit-wearing bankers can be a poetic statement of how the rich businessmen are the real thieves in today's society.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

D, on 07 October 2019 - 01:43 AM, said:

amphibian, on 07 October 2019 - 12:49 AM, said:

D, on 06 October 2019 - 11:05 PM, said:

I don't get it. It's not like there's any shortage of subway shootings in USA. The article just jumps straight to saying its obviously a re-enactment of a very specific subway shooting with no mention of how/why it links to that particular one instead of a bajllion other possible subway shootings, despite the number of people being different, their ages and races being different, and it happening in Chicago rather than New York?

The Goetz shooting is probably the most famous subway shooting in US history.

https://en.m.wikiped...Subway_shooting

Gotham is also a stand-in for NYC.

Ok, so the facts so far are:
-Joker movie has a subway shooting
-Goetz shooting is the most famous subway shooting

So... does any movie which depicts a subway shooting must definitely be referencing the Goetz shooting?

Gotham isn't a NYC stand-in, Gotham is the DC universe's equivalent of Chicago. Metropolis is the DC NYC.

Didn't the movie Death Wish have a subway shooting, where the vigilante main character shoots two muggers on the subway? Couldn't the scene in Joker be referencing that? After all, both the main character of Death Wish and Joker are white middle-aged "everymen" plus deranged vigilantes who see themselves as heroes? The switch from ordinary muggers assaulting him on the subway to suit-wearing bankers can be a poetic statement of how the rich businessmen are the real thieves in today's society.

In Goetz's initial videotaped confession, he called NYC's justice system a "joke". This is clear evidence that Hollywood was laying the foundation for this Joker film all the way back in 1984...

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 07 October 2019 - 02:02 AM

[polishgenius]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 07 October 2019 - 02:02 AM, said:

Gotham isn't a NYC stand-in, Gotham is the DC universe's equivalent of Chicago. Metropolis is the DC NYC.

I have no idea about the truth of the whole argument but Gotham is definitely at least as much New York as Chicago. The old idea is that Gotham is New York at night whereas Metropolis is New York during the day is something a lot of writers seem to hold to.

[Gorefest]

Well, what can I say. I thought Joker was awesome. Amazing performance by Joachim Phoenix. I can see why some people might worry about copycat stuff, but the film steers away from making Joker relatable or identifiable, in my opinion at least. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

[polishgenius]

So which fucking dickhead decided putting a Gary Glitter song on the Joker soundtrack was a good idea?

[worry]

Toy Story 4 -- some of the reviews I read said this was lighter fare, after the emotional wringer of TS3. What a bunch of liars. This was -- by far -- the hardest, saddest movie in the series. Imo it was also the best.

[Tiste Simeon]

Finally saw Avengers Endgame and it was pretty good though I don't think it had the same impact as Infinity War. Good way to keep the various franchises going though. No idea how they're going to do a Black Widow film now, unless it's an origin story of course.

[Chnoiel]

Last movie I saw was Joker. I really liked it a lot. First good DC film in ages. And Joaquin was amazing.

[Chnoiel]

amphibian, on 05 October 2019 - 05:25 PM, said:

Here's a New Yorker article talking about how The Joker warps certain events in NYC's past that have strong racist elements without truly understanding what happened back then or is happening onscreen: https://www.newyorke...mbing-emptiness

I'm sorry, but this article is so..... bad. I'd like to think the author was trolling.
Joker a parody of Black Panther????