[Morgoth]

tiam, on Mar 29 2009, 09:19 PM, said:

Forgot how elitist this forum was

where did that come from?

[Urizen]

yeah, were did that come from?

[lord of tragedy]

what a bizzare post.

back on topic, and apologies if its been explained before, but am i right in assuming that the skykeeps, such as moonspawn, are all machines? ditto the ones that are seen in the warrens?

so the conflict between KCNR and KCCM is one between those who follow the traditional matriarcal hierarchy and those who don't, those who ceed power to the matron and those who would harness the power of machines?

what if Icarium is the one who taught the short tails to build machines and not the other way around? it would seem to me to fit his sense of honour? sorry for all the question marks but this is highly speculative?

[HoosierDaddy]

lord of tragedy, on Mar 29 2009, 06:14 PM, said:

what a bizzare post.

back on topic, and apologies if its been explained before, but am i right in assuming that the skykeeps, such as moonspawn, are all machines? ditto the ones that are seen in the warrens?

so the conflict between KCNR and KCCM is one between those who follow the traditional matriarcal hierarchy and those who don't, those who ceed power to the matron and those who would harness the power of machines?

what if Icarium is the one who taught the short tails to build machines and not the other way around? it would seem to me to fit his sense of honour? sorry for all the question marks but this is highly speculative?

1. I think they are chucks of rock, that are powered by machines. Not machine through and through, like an airplane.

2. The Nahruk were the original K'Chain, but at some point they evolved into the K'chain Me'chaile and went extinct. The Nah'ruk also have magic of their own, not just mechanical knowledge, thus why the Matron's were so angry by their refusal to join their magic to theirs.

3. I have the feeling that the Nahruk are far older than Icarium, but that is a complete guess, and has no information behind it other than my own view that by the time the FA, T'lan, Jaghut, and K'Chain were the main species, the Nahruk had been gone for a LONG time.

[Skywalker]

Abyss, on Mar 26 2009, 08:25 PM, said:

So MUCH malazan DoD prologue goodness!!!!!!

(snip)

One possibility for the 'war' is the return of the KN, possibly because of the moon being shattered.

The Sky Keeps in the Impy Warren could be refugee KN, or they could be the Matron's KC army's staging
area.(snip)

tiam, on Mar 29 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

As a possibility to why the matron is looking for human followers.

The Imperial Warren Skykeeps are full of KCNR. (snip)

Um... no they're not!

When QB and Kalam and co were trying to break into the Skykeeps in the Imperial Warren, and Cotillion appeared to save their asses, here's what he said to Kalam (Pg 213 of BH, dunno which edition (picked it up on Google Books):

Quote

'Somewhat. ... Why are you trying to break into a fortress filled with K'Chain Che'Malle?'

Which actually makes things more curious. Is it the case that the KCCM (not KCNR) in the Imperial Warren are there unbeknownst to the matron in the DoD prologue? Maybe she thinks she's the last matron, but doesn't know that reinforcements are hiding in plain sight?

[HoosierDaddy]

Skywalker, on Mar 30 2009, 01:33 AM, said:

Abyss, on Mar 26 2009, 08:25 PM, said:

So MUCH malazan DoD prologue goodness!!!!!!

(snip)

One possibility for the 'war' is the return of the KN, possibly because of the moon being shattered.

The Sky Keeps in the Impy Warren could be refugee KN, or they could be the Matron's KC army's staging
area.(snip)

tiam, on Mar 29 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

As a possibility to why the matron is looking for human followers.

The Imperial Warren Skykeeps are full of KCNR. (snip)

Um... no they're not!

When QB and Kalam and co were trying to break into the Skykeeps in the Imperial Warren, and Cotillion appeared to save their asses, here's what he said to Kalam (Pg 213 of BH, dunno which edition (picked it up on Google Books):

Quote

'Somewhat. ... Why are you trying to break into a fortress filled with K'Chain Che'Malle?'

Which actually makes things more curious. Is it the case that the KCCM (not KCNR) in the Imperial Warren are there unbeknownst to the matron in the DoD prologue? Maybe she thinks she's the last matron, but doesn't know that reinforcements are hiding in plain sight?

Per RG, those skykeeps had something to do with Menandore, right? When asked what "she was up to..." by, perhaps the Errant, she said "Skykeeps." I synthesized the two.

[Aptorian]

Skywalker, on Mar 30 2009, 07:33 AM, said:

Which actually makes things more curious. Is it the case that the KCCM (not KCNR) in the Imperial Warren are there unbeknownst to the matron in the DoD prologue? Maybe she thinks she's the last matron, but doesn't know that reinforcements are hiding in plain sight?

This distinction between them is often made, but there is a mention of the shorttails full name somewhere. It's K'chan Che'malle Nah'ruk. They're all KCCM. Better to call one short and longtail.

It is also not right that the longtails don't have technology, the prologue shows us that the Matrons do indeed use technology. The difference more likely lies in that the longtails aren't innovators, very few of her drones are probably capable of independant thought so new ideas and advances are slow if not non-existant. The shorttails on the other hand are free thinkers (we can guess) and as such rely more heavily on machines.

[Skywalker]

Aptorian, on Mar 30 2009, 11:18 AM, said:

This distinction between them is often made, but there is a mention of the shorttails full name somewhere. It's K'chan Che'malle Nah'ruk. They're all KCCM. Better to call one short and longtail.

Do you have a quote? I ran a quick google books search for the term, and could not find it. Also I don't remember reading that.

[Aptorian]

Somewhere in BH I think. Don't have the book near me right now.

[D'rek]

Additionally, after Cotillion says the keeps in the IW are full of KCCM, Kalam directly asks if they are long-tails or short-tails, and Cotillion says "Does it matter?". We never get an answer, but it implies that it could have been either.

You know just cause most of the long-tails are drones doesn't mean they had less technology. With expendable, ever-loyal drones, the Matrons could have pursued whatever random technological innovations they imagined and would could perhaps do it even quicker then Nah'ruk, who would've argued about it and might not have had the labour forces of the Matrons at their disposal.

As always, I would like to point out that the Nah'ruk didn't rebel everywhere. The K'Chain fighting Silchas and Scabby were comprised of long and short tails. The only place we know for sure had a "short-tail rebellion" is Morn.

HoosierDaddy, on Mar 30 2009, 12:42 AM, said:

Per RG, those skykeeps had something to do with Menandore, right? When asked what "she was up to..." by, perhaps the Errant, she said "Skykeeps." I synthesized the two.

Uh, no. She and the Errant knew of the skykeeps out and about, and they implied that they knew something big was going to be happening soon in relation to that, but neither indicated that they had any personal involvement...

This post has been edited by D'rek: 30 March 2009 - 10:15 PM

[Skywalker]

D'rek, on Mar 31 2009, 03:43 AM, said:

Additionally, after Cotillion says the keeps in the IW are full of KCCM, Kalam directly asks if they are long-tails or short-tails, and Cotillion says "Does it matter?". We never get an answer, but it implies that it could have been either.

Hmm... fair point. So it could be that the prologue KCCM matron is expecting the IW KCNR to "land" soon. That fits in nicely with her ranting about enemies coming etc.

But this leads me to ask: How do the KCNR procreate? Do they have matrons too?

[lord of tragedy]

i keep thinking of the borg but i'm not sure in relation to who? the Kccm seem to live as a hive subordinated to the matron while the KCNR seem to work side by side with machinery. the war between them that ruin mentions in RG would seem to me to represent the evoloutionary struggle of an entitiy that must evolve or die? if the KCCM were so tough how did the andii ever defeat them? perhaps the matrons are the weakness, just as in the bee hive. maybe the short tails recognised this and the ensuing war was because of this?

as to how they are born i really dont know, but the answer would solve alot of questions.

[Abyss]

Daemon_Monkey, on Mar 27 2009, 05:19 PM, said:

...Plus I always enjoy uber-beings from the past getting there arses kicked by marines

It's always a high point when it happens... Raest, the Semk god (sort of - Pearl and Apt helped), the Thelomen demon, Silchas...)

Urizen, on Mar 27 2009, 05:19 PM, said:

lord of tragedy, on Mar 27 2009, 09:47 PM, said:

i have posted this already and got no reply. the question seems to me to be why the matron needs the SA and MS. is she attempting to stave off extinction by ascending in the human fashion? is it a representation within the pantheon that she desires? a place within the deck of dragons? i always felt that drawing the house of chains into the deck meant that in a sense it was now part of wu and could not simply be destroyed? is this the protection she seeks?

on a more simple level the fact that we are given the Shigal POV leads me to suspect that the Matron may actually end up on the malazan side. or if not her then Shigal will.

I think the Matron's need for Destriant, Mortal swords and Shield Anvils stems from her madness. Her insanity (or the crippled God, or both) has probably inspired her to think that human worshipers/slaves is what she need to win wars, leading her to an campaign of expansion.

My first thought was that the Matron and, presuably most of the KCCM, will fall under(or has already fallen) the sway of the CG while the "questers" will learn to live with the world and oppose the "old ways".

tiam, on Mar 29 2009, 01:34 PM, said:

As a possibility to why the matron is looking for human followers.

The Imperial Warren Skykeeps are full of KCNR. Essentially they are coming for some reason and the civil war likeky never ended and went underground to avoid extinction as they were going extinct when Ruin arrived on WU. Now the reason for the civil war was that the KCNR wouldnt attach there power to there matron like the KCCM. Does this not suggest that the Matron in the rooted city/ex sky keep needs more back up....

As i've posted elsethread, my theory (supported by the prologue) is that the Matron is trying to avoid extinction of the KC by linking her race to huymans, who are throving on the planet.

Whether this threat of extinction is due to general fade out or impending attack by the KN or another faction is unclear.

Aptorian, on Mar 29 2009, 01:19 PM, said:

blackzoid, on Mar 29 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

I'm hoping that the KCCM remain a third side, rather then joing either the CG or The malazan's.

My hopes aswell. I do however suspect that they will have a role in the solution to the Jadestatues. And there are two factions, from the prologue, it would seem that the Shorttails are the bad guys... so to speak.

Not necessarily, since apprently at one point the Shorties were ready to ally with Silchas and the Andii against the KC and then the Edur.

It's really all gloriously set up... we have the 14th/Peris/Host and various allies, whatever the CG has set in motion, and likely at least two factions of K'Chain in play.

Obviously this could play out along the very predictable lines of the 14&co allied with one KC faction and the CG allied with the other, but trust in SE, SE is good, SE is great, SE seldom does the obvious...

Skywalker, on Mar 30 2009, 01:33 AM, said:

Abyss, on Mar 26 2009, 08:25 PM, said:

So MUCH malazan DoD prologue goodness!!!!!!

(snip)

One possibility for the 'war' is the return of the KN, possibly because of the moon being shattered.

The Sky Keeps in the Impy Warren could be refugee KN, or they could be the Matron's KC army's staging
area.(snip)

tiam, on Mar 29 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

As a possibility to why the matron is looking for human followers.

The Imperial Warren Skykeeps are full of KCNR. (snip)

Um... no they're not!

When QB and Kalam and co were trying to break into the Skykeeps in the Imperial Warren, and Cotillion appeared to save their asses, here's what he said to Kalam (Pg 213 of BH, dunno which edition (picked it up on Google Books):

Quote

'Somewhat. ... Why are you trying to break into a fortress filled with K'Chain Che'Malle?'

...

Aptorian, on Mar 30 2009, 01:48 AM, said:

Skywalker, on Mar 30 2009, 07:33 AM, said:

Which actually makes things more curious. Is it the case that the KCCM (not KCNR) in the Imperial Warren are there unbeknownst to the matron in the DoD prologue? Maybe she thinks she's the last matron, but doesn't know that reinforcements are hiding in plain sight?

This distinction between them is often made, but there is a mention of the shorttails full name somewhere. It's K'chan Che'malle Nah'ruk. They're all KCCM. Better to call one short and longtail.

It is also not right that the longtails don't have technology, the prologue shows us that the Matrons do indeed use technology. The difference more likely lies in that the longtails aren't innovators, very few of her drones are probably capable of independant thought so new ideas and advances are slow if not non-existant. The shorttails on the other hand are free thinkers (we can guess) and as such rely more heavily on machines.

Both sides have tech. And we don't know a whole lot about the KN before the Matrons 'revived' them on the world during the war against the Tiste. They may have originally been just another hive mind form until the current batch evolved beyond that.

lord of tragedy, on Apr 1 2009, 07:23 AM, said:

i keep thinking of the borg but i'm not sure in relation to who? the Kccm seem to live as a hive subordinated to the matron while the KCNR seem to work side by side with machinery. the war between them that ruin mentions in RG would seem to me to represent the evoloutionary struggle of an entitiy that must evolve or die? if the KCCM were so tough how did the andii ever defeat them? perhaps the matrons are the weakness, just as in the bee hive. maybe the short tails recognised this and the ensuing war was because of this?

as to how they are born i really dont know, but the answer would solve alot of questions.

It would.
There's also the hint in RG that immature KC are enslaved by Matrons as they mature and emerge from the water (ref'ing 'The Shore' in the whole Shake thing).

So maybe eggs are laid in the water, hatched, 'reclaimed' and then shaped as needed, which seems like a realy, really complicated way to go about it all and may even contradict Kalyth's comment that birthing the Soldier breed takes a lot out of the Matron, unless that's a ref to the later stage or the process... or something...

tiam, on Mar 29 2009, 04:19 PM, said:

Forgot how elitist this forum was

- Abyss, ...notes we're not elitist, we're just better and more knowledgeable and wiser and cleverer than you and also better looking... ... oh calm down i'm kidding... ...except about the better looking part...

[Wry]

Abyss, on Apr 1 2009, 03:39 PM, said:

It would.
There's also the hint in RG that immature KC are enslaved by Matrons as they mature and emerge from the water (ref'ing 'The Shore' in the whole Shake thing).

So maybe eggs are laid in the water, hatched, 'reclaimed' and then shaped as needed, which seems like a realy, really complicated way to go about it all and may even contradict Kalyth's comment that birthing the Soldier breed takes a lot out of the Matron, unless that's a ref to the later stage or the process... or something..

- Abyss, ...notes we're not elitist, we're just better and more knowledgeable and wiser and cleverer than you and also better looking... ... oh calm down i'm kidding... ...except about the better looking part...

Actually that whole KC water birth thing makes no sense now (not that it ever made much). We know that the matron gives birth to at least some of her offspring from the prologue. So unless she fishes them from the see and reinserts and pops them out again (picture that!) i don't think that can be how it works.

From the Shi'gals POV and his talk of "flavours" it seems apparent that matrons can alter offspring on a genetic level, and the word flavour implies it's something they consume (chemical, virus, enzyme laden milk what ever). So perhaps the shake sea mutants are a result of this substance being in the sea and consumed by humans. Possibly either left over from all the dead matrons in the big fight or ( my new favourite theory) our mad matron pumped it into the sea as part of an earlier experiment at linking her colony to humanity

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Quote

Abyss: Both sides have tech. And we don't know a whole lot about the KN before the Matrons 'revived' them on the world during the war against the Tiste. They may have originally been just another hive mind form until the current batch evolved beyond that.

Actually Kallor who seems to know a lot on KCCM said that the short tail weren't subservient to the Matron which would mean that they weren't organized in hive organization.

[Aptorian]

Killymandaros is a KCCM Matron and she's been spawning in the sea for millenia.... dun dun duuuuuun!

[blackzoid]

Nah,I think shes more related to the Forkrul Assail then anything else.

Wonder if the Forkrul Assail ever tried to "arbitrate" in the KCCM/KCNR civil war? A 3 way fight involving those guys would have been sweet.

[D'rek]

Bauchelain the Evil, on Apr 1 2009, 10:03 AM, said:

Quote

Abyss: Both sides have tech. And we don't know a whole lot about the KN before the Matrons 'revived' them on the world during the war against the Tiste. They may have originally been just another hive mind form until the current batch evolved beyond that.

Actually Kallor who seems to know a lot on KCCM said that the short tail weren't subservient to the Matron which would mean that they weren't organized in hive organization.

Kallor said that the revived Short-tails (some of them anyway) did not want to donate their magic to the Matron. This could just mean that traditional Short-tail society did not practice the donating all magic to the Matron part...

[lord of tragedy]

anyone have the qoute from kallor or the book and page?

[Lister of Smeg]

MoI Page 593.

Quote

"Alas, these new children (KCNR) were not as tractable as the Matrons were conditioned to expect among their brood - more explicitly, the Short-Tails would not surrender or merge their magical talents with their mothers'."

That's about the most useful bit on this subject.