[lord of tragedy]

cheers lister. good to see craig off the crack and red dwarf on the way back.

so if the short tails breed independant of a matron perhaps its there young that the shake discover in the sea.

[Mazrim]

What if the war the Matron thinks is coming is the same as what Herbioc (sp) thinks is coming. After all she is very magical she might be feeling the jade people coming and feels like this will be like it was when Ruin and Scabby came

[Sinisdar Toste]

 Aptorian, on Apr 1 2009, 11:25 AM, said:

Killymandaros is a KCCM Matron and she's been spawning in the sea for millenia.... dun dun duuuuuun!

Quote

Nah,I think shes more related to the Forkrul Assail then anything else.

Wonder if the Forkrul Assail ever tried to "arbitrate" in the KCCM/KCNR civil war? A 3 way fight involving those guys would have been sweet.

*Fwooooosh*

Wow did you feel that one go right over your head?

[Abyss]

 Wry, on Apr 1 2009, 11:02 AM, said:

 Abyss, on Apr 1 2009, 03:39 PM, said:

It would.
There's also the hint in RG that immature KC are enslaved by Matrons as they mature and emerge from the water (ref'ing 'The Shore' in the whole Shake thing).

So maybe eggs are laid in the water, hatched, 'reclaimed' and then shaped as needed, which seems like a realy, really complicated way to go about it all and may even contradict Kalyth's comment that birthing the Soldier breed takes a lot out of the Matron, unless that's a ref to the later stage or the process... or something...

Actually that whole KC water birth thing makes no sense now (not that it ever made much). We know that the matron gives birth to at least some of her offspring from the prologue. So unless she fishes them from the see and reinserts and pops them out again (picture that!) i don't think that can be how it works.

Not necessarily.
Keep in the mind the Shake, by the time we see them, are generations removed from whatever crossbred Tiste tribe was actually dealing with the Kchain. For all we know, there could have been a patricular Matron who used this birthing practice or it could be they evolved away from it.

Sea turtles plant eggs on the shore. The babies hatch and go to sea and however long later return to the same spot and do it again. Kangaroo babies are born from one end of the 'roo and then have to crawl up mommy to a whole other end to get into the pouch and start nursing. Don't even get me started on seahorses. So the suggestion of a species that lays its eggs in the sea but then reclaims the survivors for bio-reconstructions isn't unthinkable. Genetic imperatives are weird things.

Quote

From the Shi'gals POV and his talk of "flavours" it seems apparent that matrons can alter offspring on a genetic level, and the word flavour implies it's something they consume (chemical, virus, enzyme laden milk what ever). So perhaps the shake sea mutants are a result of this substance being in the sea and consumed by humans. Possibly either left over from all the dead matrons in the big fight or ( my new favourite theory) our mad matron pumped it into the sea as part of an earlier experiment at linking her colony to humanity

I do like these theories tho'.

 D'rek, on Apr 1 2009, 01:38 PM, said:

 Bauchelain the Evil, on Apr 1 2009, 10:03 AM, said:

Quote

Abyss: Both sides have tech. And we don't know a whole lot about the KN before the Matrons 'revived' them on the world during the war against the Tiste. They may have originally been just another hive mind form until the current batch evolved beyond that.

Actually Kallor who seems to know a lot on KCCM said that the short tail weren't subservient to the Matron which would mean that they weren't organized in hive organization.

Kallor said that the revived Short-tails (some of them anyway) did not want to donate their magic to the Matron. This could just mean that traditional Short-tail society did not practice the donating all magic to the Matron part...

 Lister of Smeg, on Apr 1 2009, 05:57 PM, said:

MoI Page 593.

Quote

"Alas, these new children (KCNR) were not as tractable as the Matrons were conditioned to expect among their brood - more explicitly, the Short-Tails would not surrender or merge their magical talents with their mothers'."

That's about the most useful bit on this subject.

Near that quote Kallor mentions that just translating that small chuk of information was a challenge, so, in finest SE form, we have to allow for the possibility he was wrong, mis- or under-informed.


- Abyss, overunderinformed.

[Cause]

I understood flavours in reference to the shigalls to mean something entirelly different. There are only three and they are meant to guard the matron but it looks like they are very indepednant, smart and deadly and occasionally try to kill the matron. However the three are born with widely different personalities, the flavours, so when one thins its a good iea to kill the matron the other two by their nature oppose it and fight him off.

[Tiger_sword]

I was just thinking that the skykeeps in the imperial warren probably wont make an appearence in DoD beacuse they are going after mother dark. Recall the words of Grub in BH:

"They are coming, to await the resurrection [...] They will try and kill her. But that is wrong. She is our last hope. Our last hope"

After TtH I'm sure this must be MD since she was kind of 'resurrected' in that she has returned. Not to mention there is no love loss between the KCCM and MD! Therefore one would presume that they are off to Coral. I wouldn't be suprised if this matron has absoultely no idea abot the skykeeps in the IW.

[Apsalar Shadowdancer]

or... the OT dragon is Taim and the KC are not "staging" in the IW, but rather already trying to stop taim..... Crazy theory time GO.

This post has been edited by Apsalar Shadowdancer: 15 April 2009 - 09:23 PM

[tiam]

 Tiger_sword, on Apr 15 2009, 08:55 PM, said:

I was just thinking that the skykeeps in the imperial warren probably wont make an appearence in DoD beacuse they are going after mother dark. Recall the words of Grub in BH:

"They are coming, to await the resurrection [...] They will try and kill her. But that is wrong. She is our last hope. Our last hope"

After TtH I'm sure this must be MD since she was kind of 'resurrected' in that she has returned. Not to mention there is no love loss between the KCCM and MD! Therefore one would presume that they are off to Coral. I wouldn't be suprised if this matron has absoultely no idea abot the skykeeps in the IW.

I dont think the KCCM in the IW pre empted the Dragnipur death spell being overthrown. They appeared in BH which is way before TTH i think (timeline not important) but i i also think its a possibility. I also think there definitely NR rather than CM as the last matron is in Lether (ish). Still i do like that idea but it sets it up for ICE to take over. which means its Teblors against Seguleh against KCNR

[treach]

I'm sad

I want to read the prologue too, but when i click the link all I get is :

Quote

Sorry, the link that brought you to this page seems to be out of date or broken.

Is there anywahere else i can read it??

[HoosierDaddy]

It's working for me. Are you clicking the link at the top of the DoD forum (DoD Prologue... It's here!!!!!)?

[treach]

 HoosierDaddy, on Apr 22 2009, 02:06 PM, said:

It's working for me. Are you clicking the link at the top of the DoD forum (DoD Prologue... It's here!!!!!)?

Yup, you're right. Thanks for that.

Now if you'll excuse me, I got some reading to do......

[Dolorous Menhir]

I wonder about the link between the name of the KCCM city - Ampelas Rooted - and the dragon of the same name chained in Shadow, that Cotillion spoke with in BH.

Not sure how to link this to the crashed sky keep that Mappo and Icarium found in the same book, which contained a dead chained dragon - Sorrit. Perhaps that sky keep crashed because Sorrit was dead? And Ampelas is Rooted because the dragon was imprisoned in Shadow?

Then we also have Heboric's vision in the prologue of what is presumably a KCCM standing in front of another chained dragon, who is being tormented for some reason. Could this be Sorrit in life? The O-Dragon?

[dawnkiller]

This may be barely comprehensible because I didn't get an awesome amount of sleep, but I think there might be a thread of something in the junkdrawer of my brain regarding the KCCM, their position in this war and how they fit into things, so what the hell, right?

Quote

'. . . The Edur women hold that the Kechra bound all that exists to time itself, thus assuring the annihilation of everything. Their great crime. Yet that death -- I have thought hard on this -- that death, it does not have the face of chaos. The very opposite, in fact.'
'Chaos pursues . . . It is the Devourer. Mother Dark scattered its power, its armies, and it seeks every to rejoins, to become one again, for when that happens no other power -- not even Mother Dark -- can defeat it.'
--Fear and Clip speculate, RG p.616-617

Gonna re-quote Ectemnius from the Prologue thread because it could be relevant (apologies, Ectemnius):

Quote

... the conversation Cotillion has with Edgewalker in The Bonehunters, chapter two. They are in the shadowrealm and conversing about the place where Ampelas, Kalse and Eloth are chained.

'There is little residual power left here,' Cotillion said'...
'That is true. Of course, that is not the case on the surface... Standing stones are always half-buried, Cotillion.'
'And this manifestation is given to the underworld?'
'In a manner of speaking.'

Cotillion then asks Edgewalker:
'Is the overworld manifestation to be found in some other realm?'
'Assuming they are not entirely buried or eroded by now.'

Let's talk about Dolmens . . .

The Dolmen is one of the Fulcra/Unaligned in both the Deck and the Tiles. Usually it's associated with Time, most often specifically with Icarium -- but perhaps not originally.

Icarium does appear to have picked up some mechanical skills from the KCCM. We also know from Silchas Ruin in an early chapter of RG that the KCCM were fervent recorders of history, writing it on their molt-skins. Since the KCCM are largely believed to be extinct, the title of Dolmen could have been reassigned to move with current events -- much like the Holds became Houses over time.

Now -- the KCCM apparently bound existence to time. How that actually works is anyone's guess, and, as Fear said, ensured there is one day an end. This is evocative of Paran granting the CG a place in the Deck, in a way, because to accept and integrate is also to implicitly create restrictions. I assume that before this there was a sort of undifferentiated elemental Blargh, with warrens and elements existing without linearity, which would explain why all the creation myths are so contradictory. Just like how the elements supposedly came about via MD gradually separating them from herself, and the warrens as most know them were codified by K'rul's assimilation and imposition of a system, perhaps temporal order was instilled by the KCCM -- the children of dragons, the eleint, who seem to be closest to chaos. That means that, in a hereditary sense, the KCCM oppose chaos. So I'm going to guess the enemy is, directly or indirectly, the CG, even if the current Matron has gone all bats (and the fact we've already seen a CG-twisted Matron in MoI doesn't hurt).

I wonder . . . Iccy had that huge machine in Lether, and when he turned it on it apparently squinched a bunch of souls together into his own, making him a variant on Quick Ben or, less literally, K'rul (who encompasses all warrens, yet "is" none in particular). Could the KCCM done something similar and created a device to somehow "bind" existence to time? We know things can pass through warrens, or exist in several simultaneously. A few parts in each, maybe spiked with a little dragon blood, and then turn the thing on . . .

Re: Mortal Swords and stuff: You know, humans are not intrinsically incompatible with the KCCM, even if their worship structure is -- I think the Matron's just targeting the wrong people. I mean, if the problem is that the human blood is going to flush out the Matron's gifts and she truly wants human servants to carry her power, all she really needs are a couple Shake witches and warlocks.

[MTS]

...Wow, your whole time theory is quite good. I can't see any flaws in it, but that's just me. Nice quote-fu as well. I'm not sure, though, how the CG is related to the whole thing. Are you saying that, as the CG uses chaos as his wellfont of power, the CG is necessarily an opponent of the KCCM? He's not even from this world, and his aims seem rather selfish actually, albeit inclined towards chaos.

The Ampelas Rooted thing is also rather interesting i.e. Ampelas' Dolmen having a physical manifestation as a KCCM hive. It certainly explains the shape, how it got there, and provides a tangible link between the dragons and the KCCM. Following that logic, though, shouldn't there be a Kalse Rooted and an Eloth Rooted somewhere nearby, as all three dragons are chained in the same place?

Btw if all this is right, I will be utterly gobsmacked by SE's ability to tie all of it together. Just amazing...

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 29 April 2009 - 04:04 PM

[dawnkiller]

 Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Apr 29 2009, 11:01 AM, said:

...Wow, your whole time theory is quite good. I can't see any flaws in it, but that's just me. Nice quote-fu as well. I'm not sure, though, how the CG is related to the whole thing. Are you saying that, as the CG uses chaos as his wellfont of power, the CG is necessarily an opponent of the KCCM? He's not even from this world, and his aims seem rather selfish actually, albeit inclined towards chaos.

The CG, I think, is not necessarily a willing agent of chaos (he used to have his own aspect, after all), but like the Edur he touched he's been "contaminated", so any ordered society is at risk. From the prologue we see that the KCCM have a strict caste structure, instilled at birth -- I doubt they'd get along with chaos. If Lether and the Edur is any example, one of the ways he moves is by exploiting inherent flaws in the system and basically corrupting the society until it starts eating itself. Re: the Edur becoming eaten by the Letherii way of life and the development of the Patriotists. God only knows what would happen in a KCCM hive.

I don't know if the CG would be targeting the KCCM specifically, but I don't think he needs to. It seems he's going after anyone. All continents, all races, it seems . . . he's touched humans, he's touched Jaghut (the Pannion Seer), he's touched the Tiste (Edur), he's gotten some former Imass (the Unbound), he's tried to claim an agent in the TTT (Karsa) -- in terms of his influence, so far the KCCM and Forkul Assail are really the only races so far unaccounted for. Likewise, if the KCCM were in some way responsible for binding the laws of the world, he might be able to achieve something useful by destroying them or bringing them over to his side. I mean, his goal is essentially to get the hell off Wu, right? Or at least off Burn . . .

It's actually kinda beautiful how indiscriminant the CG is when it comes to targets and agents. Any race, gender or creed, he'll take you as long as you have a hideous flaw. He's kind of like Martin Luther King. ...uh, but of evil.

Re: The potentiality of other Rooteds: Remember Silchas Ruin noted in RG, I think around the same place where they saw one of the rare open-air dwellings, that most of their dwellings had been inundated with the destruction of Omtose Phellack. There could be a few at the bottom of the ocean, or else otherwise buried -- also mentioned in that section was that the KCCM had begun building down as a means of self-defense.

[Dolorous Menhir]

 dawnkiller, on Apr 29 2009, 04:44 PM, said:

Now -- the KCCM apparently bound existence to time. How that actually works is anyone's guess, and, as Fear said, ensured there is one day an end.

To be totally clear, are you referring to the scene where Fear explained that the defeated KCCM had cast a death-spell that would ensure the destruction of the universe? You don't make an explicit reference to this, but it seems pretty clear that this is the means by which they "bound existence to time". Prior, time had no end and so would not have been so concrete. After, the remaining time would be finite. This could be considered "bound."

[dawnkiller]

 Dolorous Menhir, on Apr 29 2009, 05:48 PM, said:

To be totally clear, are you referring to the scene where Fear explained that the defeated KCCM had cast a death-spell that would ensure the destruction of the universe? You don't make an explicit reference to this, but it seems pretty clear that this is the means by which they "bound existence to time". Prior, time had no end and so would not have been so concrete. After, the remaining time would be finite. This could be considered "bound."

Curse you, Menhir! This is why we can't have sexy theories!

Seriously though, I'm actually not sure. I got that one on a re-read through RG, which is currently still in progress -- the convo I pulled was during a lull on the Endless Journey with Ruin, and that was the sole mention of the KCCM. Did the death-spell detail come up in more depth in MT? This sounds very likely, so I'd like to check out the context.

I still get why Fear says it's an act that opposes chaos, though. Recalling the Jaghut war against death itself mentioned in TtH, what the KCCM did might have been an act of spite -- or it could have been the same thing on a larger scale. Providing a beginning and an end to instill a structure. The convo before then had touched on the gradual differentiation of the elements from MD or, possibly, "Nothing" itself. Ensuring some kind of terminus to the universe is just another form of division.

(Is it sad that the thing I miss most is the possibility of having a nice explanation for why the creation myths are so jumbled?)

This post has been edited by dawnkiller: 29 April 2009 - 11:47 PM

[Dolorous Menhir]

 dawnkiller, on Apr 30 2009, 12:40 AM, said:

Curse you, Menhir! This is why we can't have sexy theories!

Seriously though, I'm actually not sure. I got that one on a re-read through RG, which is currently still in progress -- the convo I pulled was during a lull on the Endless Journey with Ruin, and that was the sole mention of the KCCM. Did the death-spell detail come up in more depth in MT? This sounds very likely, so I'd like to check out the context.

You spoke about a conversation involving Fear, so I wasn't sure if we were talking about the same conversation involving Fear. I'm referring to the MT scene in which Fear takes Trull to the Stone Bowl, shows him the skull of Scabandari, and gives him the lowdown on the actual history of the Edur. It is worth quoting the whole thing, because Fear essentially lays out what you are arguing. He is speaking to his brothers, Trull and Rhulad. My commentary in square brackets.

MT, on p.139, said:

"Kaschan sorcery," Fear said after a time, " is born of sounds our ears cannot hear, formed into words that loosen the bindings that hold all matter together, that hold it to the ground [i.e. gravity]. Sounds that bend and stretch light, as a tidal inflow up a river is drawn apart at the moment of turning [i.e. relativity]. With this sorcery, they fashioned fortresses of stone that rode the sky like clouds [the Sky Keeps were powered by gravity magic]. With this sorcery, they turned Darkness in upon itself with a hunger none who came to close could defy, an all-devouring hunger that fed first and foremost upon itself [a black hole]." His voice was strangely muted as he spoke.

"Kaschan sorcery was sent into the warren of Mother Dark, like a plague. Thus was sealed the gate from Kurald Galain to every other realm. Thus was Mother Dark driven into the very core of the Abyss, witness to an endless swirl of light surrounding her - all that she would one day devour, until the last speck of matter vanishes into her. Annihilating Mother Dark [MD has been turned into a black hole that will destroy everything]. Thus the Kaschan, who are long dead, set upon Mother dark a ritual that will in her murder. When all Light is gone. When there is naught to cast Shadow, and so Shadow too is doomed to die."

"When Scabandari Bloodeye discovered what they had done, it was too late. The end, the death of the Abyss, cannot be averted. The journey of all that exists repeats on every scale, brothers. From those realms too small for us to see, to the Abyss itself. The Kaschan locked all things into mortality, into the relentless plunge towards extinction. This was their vengeance. An act born, perhaps, of despair. Or the fiercest hatred imaginable. Witness to their own extinction, they forced all else to share that fate."

His brothers were silent. The dull echoes of Fear's last words faded away.

Then Rhulad grunted. "I see no signs of this final convergence, Fear."

"A distant death, aye. More distant than one could imagine. Yet it will come."

"And what is that to us?"

"The Tiste Invasions drove the Kaschan to their last act. Father Shadow earned the enmity of every Elder god, of every ascendant. Because of the Kaschan ritual, the eternal game among Dark, Light and Shadow would one day end. And one day, all of existence."

This is a very interesting passage. It confirms your crazy theory, which I suppose means you can't really call it crazy any more.

This post has been edited by Dolorous Menhir: 30 April 2009 - 08:42 PM

[amphibian]

 Dolorous Menhir, on Apr 30 2009, 04:40 PM, said:

This is a very interesting passage. It confirms your crazy theory, which I suppose means you can't really call it crazy any more.

Extremely interesting and cogent passage. However, keep in mind that Edur mythology has been shown to have huge errors and untruths at its core - and known only to a select few.

To me, this seems like those old tribal myths about the reason behind death - not an actual explanation of the mechanisms. Does Fear or any other Edur mention the Kaschan (K'Chain) at any other point in the books?

At this point it is evident that I need to go on a re-read tear this summer.

[Dolorous Menhir]

 amphibian, on Apr 30 2009, 11:03 PM, said:

 Dolorous Menhir, on Apr 30 2009, 04:40 PM, said:

This is a very interesting passage. It confirms your crazy theory, which I suppose means you can't really call it crazy any more.

Extremely interesting and cogent passage. However, keep in mind that Edur mythology has been shown to have huge errors and untruths at its core - and known only to a select few.

To me, this seems like those old tribal myths about the reason behind death - not an actual explanation of the mechanisms. Does Fear or any other Edur mention the Kaschan (K'Chain) at any other point in the books?

At this point it is evident that I need to go on a re-read tear this summer.

True, the Edur myths and histories are unreliable. But Fear's explanation here is not contradicted by any other established facts in the series I can think of, and it's a cut above the normal Edur legends. This was Fear saying to his brothers "You know all that other stuff our society says happened? It didn't. Here's the real story". So I'd give it a higher level of trust than their other stories - for example "Silchas Ruin betrayed Scabby".

This post has been edited by Dolorous Menhir: 30 April 2009 - 10:59 PM