[RangerSG]

The problem with this comparison is do we ever see characters "fight fair" with magic in the series? I don't think so. The Ceda vs the Warlock King was the closest to a "fair" duel. And even that ended on a cheat. The simple fact is, whoever gets the drop on another wins.

As a result, I think QB is the "best" mage, if in the sense he's the most likely to win. Why? I can't believe any mage will ever get the drop on him. We know how powerful he is. But he's still underestimated by many. People consistently (if stupidly) think he's incapable/unwilling to engage in combat because it's his nature to wait to reveal his power.

Also, when Hood's gift is amazed at both his power and his knowledge in MoI, and this is before his being "stretched," I think saying he's not a master of his warrens is absurd. Remember, every one of those 12 souls was a high priest or mage of the warren in Seven Cities. I find it highly unlikely they were not individually on par with almost any other living mage. To soulshift them together and retain their power and knowledge, which he clearly has, means that he's effectively 12 *High* mages. Sorry, I think that overpowers Tay. Also, I think QB left Kallor because revealing his strength is not his nature. If he's forced to fight there, everyone knows what he is. He doesn't want that. It limits him and targets him before he's ready.

[Grief]

As did Quick on the Dragons, cause they were arrogant idiots and not expecting a mortal to be able to be able to even hurt them.

@Apt, about surprise attacks.

[Grief]

It doesn't really work like that.
You can't just sort of, add lots of warrens together and think that it still gives you the power of all of them added.
Its still down to his capacity.

I don't think we've seen him do anything that Tay couldn't do.
And since Tay would do it with 1 warren, that's more impressive.

[RangerSG]

Grief, on Feb 28 2009, 12:40 PM, said:

It doesn't really work like that.
You can't just sort of, add lots of warrens together and think that it still gives you the power of all of them added.
Its still down to his capacity.

I don't think we've seen him do anything that Tay couldn't do.
And since Tay would do it with 1 warren, that's more impressive.

You may think it's more impressive. That doesn't make him better or more likely to win. I think that's the distinction. Also Tay is a great talent, yes. But is he half as clever as QB? I think a big part of being a mage is your ability to use your talents to solve problems. Tay causes more problems than he solves. That points to him not being nearly as clever as he thinks he is. Whereas QB is not only at least as powerful in raw terms; he's also (along with Kruppe and Tehol) among the foremost intellects in the world.

So if I had to put my life in the hands of any one Malaz mage, it's QB. Tay is, as powerful as he may be, as likely to get me killed as keep me alive.

[Aptorian]

Let me just state that I am a Quick fanboy and I'm on the team that thinks that Quick is extremely powerfull after the events of BH and RG, most likely he always had it in him. He's just too used to staying low that playing high mage is not something he enjoys... But.

Looking at reputation I think Quick is the wild card and Tay is the safe bet. We've seen Quick do awesome stuff and we've mostly only just recieved hints at how amazing Tay must be. But I think RCG sort of puts it into perspective. The combined assembled strength of the Guard are afraid to go face Tay even though he's alone. Yath, crazy mage guy, pumped up with chaos, jade and the combined power of twenty or so mages hardly made Tay seem like he was pressed.

The thing about Tay is that he's just that good. Unparralleled magical strength guarding the empire. He has hundreds? of years of training, study and experience behind him. GotMisms aside, Tay actually thought he stood a chance, aided by the cadre, against Anomander Rake. That's massive balls right there.

I think Tay would win on the basis of pure knowhow. Quick is inovative, sneaky and good at surprising you but I don't think that his combined souls would be any more of an issue for Tay than facing all of the Guard on Quon Tali.

In a one on one battle between the two I think Kalam would win, from behind, with an ottataral knife

So the real question in the Tay vs QB discussion is, who would win in a knife fight between Kalam and Kiska?

[RangerSG]

Apt,

And that's my point in the 1st post I think too. Mages don't fight fair if they have the choice. And QB would always have himself a shaved knuckle for the win. Tay is arrogant enough to believe that he can face anything. And perhaps he can. But he trusts in his skills to such a degree that he's susceptible to being bushwhacked. QB would never, ever, get bushwhacked.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

On the fact that QB is more powerful than Tay because he has 12 High Mages souls in him, I like to point out that in MoI WJ says that although they were all High Mages, summed up they weren't nearly as powerful as Tay, A'Karonys, Nightchill and Bellurdan. So this means that on sheer power Tay outclasses Quick. But then, as it has already been said, nobody fights fair in the Malazan world.

[Aptorian]

Starting a completely different discussion.

What do you think about Kelanved? Compared to Tay where would you put him? Stronger, same level, somewhat weaker?

The descriptions of Kelanveds strength from NoK, RCG and various accounts from Old Guard, etc. has me thinking he was scary good and freakishly powerfull.

I also think he may actually have been like an amalgam of Quick and Tay. Strength and knowledge combined with a sneaky secretive sometimes cruel nature.

I think I would put kelanved over Tay and Quick Ben.

What now, Tay and Quick fanbois?!

EDIT: Just clarifying, it's Kelanved not Shadowthrone we're discussing.

[Aptorian]

Bauchelain the Evil, on Feb 28 2009, 08:02 PM, said:

On the fact that QB is more powerful than Tay because he has 12 High Mages souls in him, I like to point out that in MoI WJ says that although they were all High Mages, summed up they weren't nearly as powerful as Tay, A'Karonys, Nightchill and Bellurdan. So this means that on sheer power Tay outclasses Quick. But then, as it has already been said, nobody fights fair in the Malazan world.

Some of them where priests and scholars. They weren't twelve... eleven?... grade A battlemages. So it's not certain that their combined strength would have been anything to worry Tay.

The counter argument would be that they could now have merged within Quick to become something much, much more powerfull and dangerous.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Aptorian, on Feb 28 2009, 08:05 PM, said:

Starting a completely different discussion.

What do you think about Kelanved? Compared to Tay where would you put him? Stronger, same level, somewhat weaker?

The descriptions of Kelanveds strength from NoK, RCG and various accounts from Old Guard, etc. has me thinking he was scary good and freakishly powerfull.

I also think he may actually have been like an amalgam of Quick and Tay. Strength and knowledge combined with a sneaky secretive sometimes cruel nature.

I think I would put kelanved over Tay and Quick Ben.

What now, Tay and Quick fanbois?!

Since I'm neither I have to agree.

NoK spoiler

Spoiler

I mean: in NoK he unleashed his power and there was a so much pressure that he made Tay bleed. If that isn't something

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 28 February 2009 - 07:10 PM

[RangerSG]

Apt,

Well, the problem there is everything we have on Kellanved is second-hand. That said, you don't become Shadowthrone without completely mastering the warren (or at least what he could use as a human). Also, it's clear from tBH he's very skilled at Mockra as well as Meanas. Now, whether the second comes from his ascension is an open question. It's also an open question whether his skill was actually enough to throw off Icarium.

That said, pre-ascension, I do think he's what you suggested. All of Tay's power (albeit in a much less aggressive/combat warren) combined with a slightly deranged but brilliant intellect. I think the problem comparing them is that whereas the "perception" always was QB was not a combat mage, it's hard to see the Emperor's magic, powerful as it was, as ever being directly useful in combat pre-ascension. At least large-scale battles.

Glamor/deception? Absolutely. Raw power to decimate a foe? I'm not sure he had it. But then, he could deceive and outwit until he was ready to unleash Dancer and the T'lan Imass. At which point anything he faced died.

[Aptorian]

According to Nok he, personally?, unleashed enough power at Li heng to create a mountain of Ottataral.

I agree that Kel was probably never a battlemage, after all a good tactician doesn't do his own battles, but I do think he had the knowledge to fuck you up well and good if you crossed him... who ever you were.

[Grief]

Are we talking Kellanved or Shadowthrone here?
The distinction is important.

I would say Kellanved is less powerful in terms of raw power than Tay.
He makes him bleed by the pressure, but thats cause Tay can't push back. If he pushed back at the pressure, it would distract kell etc.

So yes, i'd say that Tay is more powerful, cause we've not seen much evidence of Kellanved, and just the kind of impression I get.

[Aptorian]

Kelanved of course. Shadowthrone is practically a warren now. It's impossible to quantify his power.

It's the mortal mage emperor that is interesting to discuss.

[L'oric]

I got to put up Kellanved above Tay. It seems like it was join or die for the yet to be Imperial High Mage. It's not like he had much of a choice, and he had to foreswear D'rek which he did and did not all at the same time.
As of RotCG Tay has me convinced that he can take just about anything power for power. I love to Kiska versus Kalam idea of who would win there. Little doubt that would be Kalam by the way, even if you add the Seti that has gone poof from the storyline.

I dislike putting dead and former mortals on list but I like putting ascendants among mortals...must be a character flaw of mine.

One thing I just thought of was that Tay and Kellanved are what I would typically see as a Wizard/Magus and Dancer and Cowl are Assassins who are powerful wizards. The distinction might be minor but still has merit IMO. It seems to me that the Crimson Guard lacks a powerful Wizard that is not an Assassin.

Sincerely

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I'm sure there are or were a couple of decent mages, but you're right. Hang on, what about Corlo?

[Seras]

L'oric, on Feb 28 2009, 12:03 PM, said:

I got to put up Kellanved above Tay. It seems like it was join or die for the yet to be Imperial High Mage. It's not like he had much of a choice, and he had to foreswear D'rek which he did and did not all at the same time.
As of RotCG Tay has me convinced that he can take just about anything power for power. I love to Kiska versus Kalam idea of who would win there. Little doubt that would be Kalam by the way, even if you add the Seti that has gone poof from the storyline.

I dislike putting dead and former mortals on list but I like putting ascendants among mortals...must be a character flaw of mine.

One thing I just thought of was that Tay and Kellanved are what I would typically see as a Wizard/Magus and Dancer and Cowl are Assassins who are powerful wizards. The distinction might be minor but still has merit IMO. It seems to me that the Crimson Guard lacks a powerful Wizard that is not an Assassin.

Sincerely

i was really impressed by tay during that fight, he held off ... 5 mages? and a couple Crimson Guard veils (with the help of his bodyguard) while closing the chaos gap. Also i have a question...another one , was it the moranth munitions that made him fall into the gap? Cause i wasn't exactly sure what made him fall in.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I think it was Yath's chaotic powers...

[Aptorian]

No, people. He was stabbed by one of the veils. Kiska couldn't hold all three, so he was knifed. Last we saw of him his limp body was being sucked into chaos. Dead or maybe just unconcious.

[Stradivarius]

Kellanved surely would be above tay. lets not forget that he and dancer spent years researching and expanding the magic they could control not to mention firstly living in a deadhouse which must have given certain benifits. their later research was deeply involved with the deck of dragons, the holds and other such forms of extream magical power.