[Grief]

Yes, but worships power comes with the chains of the worshipper.
I'm not sure it'd be possible to deny one without the other.

[Malaclypse]

Grief, on Feb 27 2009, 09:01 PM, said:

Yes, but worships power comes with the chains of the worshipper.
I'm not sure it'd be possible to deny one without the other.

Consider...

Bugg/Mael had to basically negotiate with the power from his worshipper's to make it do what he wanted, ie., the form his worship had taken was repulsive to him but he could still access the power.

Anomander Rake's worshippers would be willing to surrender their will to him, trusting that he would do the right thing. He is the prodigal son. Their faith does not come with (many) strings attached, unlike Mael.

Dessembraes' worshipper's don't really require Traveller's involvement. They're perfectly happy to worship an ideal - Grief/Vengeance, which Traveller happens to embody. They don't require anything of him. Their faith runs true and clear.
He doesn't have to acknoweldge or respond to it - in a sense he's omnibenevolent in the eyes of his worshippers - if he does it, it can't be wrong. It's brilliant really, no wonder we've grown so fond of monotheism.

It is just my opinion but I think I'm right

[Grief]

Well, i'd disagree, there is almost an unexpected expectation of Rake.
Remember both Endest and Spinnock. Everything they do for him, he repays.
They expect balance, they follow him. "We serve the one who serves us" (paraphrase, but I think i'm close).

[Malaclypse]

Grief, on Feb 27 2009, 09:51 PM, said:

Well, i'd disagree, there is almost an unexpected expectation of Rake.
Remember both Endest and Spinnock. Everything they do for him, he repays.
They expect balance, they follow him. "We serve the one who serves us" (paraphrase, but I think i'm close).

'almost an unexpected expectation'?? Kindly explain what that means.

Apart from that, you raise a good point - his followers expect good leadership, not necessarily balance. His people are bereft of their Goddess' love. They are aimless, apathetic and would be reduced to mass suicide if it weren't for Anomander Rake. They made a choice, most of them long ago, to descend into despair or to follow Anomander Rake. When one of his followers publicly doubt him in any way whatsoever, they are demonstrating great fortitude.

None of which has any bearing on whether or not he is empowered by the faith of the worshippers he denies.

[Grief]

Lol, unexpected expectation

That really came out badly.

Unspoken expcetation?

They expect him to, well, i don't know. To just generally do the right thing or something I suppose.
As he says in Gotm, they judge him.

As for whether he is given power by denied faith, i'm uncertain.

I mean, he killed Tiam before MD deserted them, so he is obviously a powerhouse without the worhsip he has later.

I'd say he doesn't get power from denied faith. I think that, if he accepted the power, then he'd have to accept the godhood with it. I don't think you can take power from worship without acknowledging the worshippers power over you.

[beru]

i have to say ... all threds like this is almost as bad as 10/0...


i think i rememeber a qoute from TTH where endest silan thinks somthing in the lines of: "im worth nothing to Rake why do he repay me" this is not ment to be a qoute just the basline of one of his thoghts.
so rakes folowers aint thinking he will repay them its more like: "we do what he says beacuse we hope that he might do the right thing, possibly"

[Trull's son]

I agree that God's are much more powerful, to the point where they can control vast amounts of power over a large area. Rake is undoubtably a God, (he stops the wall of chaos (a really hard part of the series to actually imagine IMO)).
Remember the old god of war. Fener? He was a big mofo, like a giant boar that covers a ridiculously huge amount of land on the otataral island. You don't f*ck with that kind of stuff, no mortal, no ascended mortal.
A word on the K'Chain. They were punished for creating THE END OF TIME. I believe that deserves an honorable mention in this thread.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

If it was simple exchange of magical blammo, then obviously an ascendant-Spite or Envy or somesuch. But if it was a prolonged battle, then I'd give mortals like Tay a fair chance.

EDIT: The KCCM created a guaranteed armageddon? Impressive.

This post has been edited by Ain't_It_Just_: 28 February 2009 - 05:24 AM

[Seras]

Grief, on Feb 27 2009, 02:23 PM, said:

Lol, unexpected expectation

That really came out badly.

Unspoken expcetation?

They expect him to, well, i don't know. To just generally do the right thing or something I suppose.
As he says in Gotm, they judge him.

As for whether he is given power by denied faith, i'm uncertain.

I mean, he killed Tiam before MD deserted them, so he is obviously a powerhouse without the worhsip he has later.

I'd say he doesn't get power from denied faith. I think that, if he accepted the power, then he'd have to accept the godhood with it. I don't think you can take power from worship without acknowledging the worshippers power over you.

Is Anomander Rake dead? I thought he died putting the gate in Black Coral

[Aptorian]

His soul was torn up when he unmade Dragnipur from the inside.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I thought he returned to Darkness?

Oh noes, Rake is in pieces...

[Grief]

He's both. He went back to darkness, but in shreds.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Jeez...poor bloke.

Think he'll recover? Guess it's immaterial now but it'd be nice to know.

[Grief]

Possibly.
It seems he sorta became one with KG. Entwined with it.

He may recover, in like millions of years.

Yet, deaths not particularly final, but it seems one of the more final deaths we've seen.

[Mcflury]

I said it before, saying it again: BEAK OWNS ALL!!!!!

[Stradivarius]

back to tay verses quick ben hasnt quick got 8 warrens at his disposal (correct me if i'm wrong) and 9 other souls apart from his own in his body? not sure about tay but he always seams to play the games of power between mortals. quick plays games of power with gods and assedants! and no one knows for sure how powerfull quick is! my vote quick ben all the way!!

[Grief]

QB has access to many warrens, but we don't know how good he is at actually using them.
Also, many warrens isn't a tremendous advantage.

Surely its more impressive that Tay can achieve the same things with one warren that Quick takes 6 for.
Tay, iirc, has the power to take on all the CG mages at once.

And Quick never comes into a direct confrontation with a God, except the CG, who he gets owned by.

He may play the game of ascendants but only because he's smart, not because of raw power.

Also, Tay specifically ignores the games between mortals.

[Xardean]

Its not really accurate to compare Quick with past books to what he is now. He said after his battle with Icarium that he became "stretched" like more powerful. And suddenly was able to manhandle dragons easily. 3 of them... And some pretty powerful ones at that. So This is a new QB we are seeing.

[Grief]

Firsty, they are weaker soeltaken eleint. From what we've seen they aren't close to the power of actual eleint. Seems like almost 3 levels of dragon.

1. First gen Soletaken Eleint. Rake, K'rul etc.
2. Eleint.
3. Other soletaken Eleint. Orfantal etc.

Quick Bens dragons were all from set 3.

Secondly, he's more powerful than previously, but that doesn't somehow make him a massive powerhouse. Lets face it, the dragons he fought weren't very powerful, and fought arrogantly and stupidly.

He's gained power, but not enough to match Tay imo.

I don't think we've seen QB do anything Tay couldn't.

On the point of killing dragons.

Kallor easily kills orfantal.

Tay easily blows away Kallor.

QB drops Kallor into a hole, and then runs away.

Pretty sure Tayschrenn could take on 3 soletaken eleint of the level that the one QB beats are.

Cowl is afraid of Tay, and Cowl injures Silanah.

[Aptorian]

Grief, on Feb 28 2009, 07:18 PM, said:

Kallor easily kills orfantal.

Tay easily blows away Kallor.

QB drops Kallor into a hole, and then runs away.

Cowl is afraid of Tay, and Cowl injures Silanah.

I'm not sure these four are good examples.

Kallor stabs Orfantal in the neck. Not really a fight just a grab and a stab. Can't really tell how a real fight would have turned out from that. A dragon will always have the advantage of ranged attacks and the sky as their safe heaven.

Tay blasted Kallor when he was distracted/not looking. Not really fair. But of course a fighter vs a mage is normally going to go the way of that result. I think it is a testament to Kallors power that he wasn't turned into ash but instead was merely knocked on his ass.

Quick makes a cool trick but again, not like Kallor was expecting it. Whether you use magic or just stabbed him in the eye, it would still be trickery, not a fair fight. I still wonder what would have happened if Quick had closed that hole

Cowl got in a surprise attack on an unaware Silannah.