[T'renn]

Tays among the Mortals

Spoiler

Hell who knows, maybe he too ascends after being thrown in the chaos rift

This post has been edited by Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn: 26 February 2009 - 08:54 PM

[Talamadas]

I was about to mention Gothos until somone said mortal.
We shouldnt forget about "normal" bonehunter/malazan cadre mages.
Sinn if she is ever able to control her power completely (just as an example).

I didn't read the thread in detail so i will hopefully add to the list of pwerful mages instead of just naming the same old. I think that the stongest have been named but still there are a lot of other powerful mages around. Does L'oric count as a mortal?
I would also say that Pust isn't as bad as he seems especially after how easily he beat that divers in tBH.

[Grief]

L'oric, Osserc is far more powerful than Tay. Tay says so himself.
Rake attacks Tay, to my recollection, once. And it brings him to his knees, even though he's on a hill that the malaz mages have been putting wards on for weeks.
At the same time as trying to defend the whole of Moons spawn from all directions, against multiple mages, and attacking the troops to try make the empire back down.

If Rake were to fight Tay, one against one, in a straight up fight, Tay would get killed.

Tay managed to damage moons spawn?
Hows that an achievement? It was being attacked by many other people at once, and its not exactly a hard target to miss. All he had to do was stay alive long enough to throw magic at it. Not very hard when you're on a hill saturated with wards.

Yes, QB and Tay are up with the ascendants.

Rake and Osserc, they're up with the Elder Gods. For all we know, Osserc could be an Elder God.


Kallors curse had the force of a million sacrifices behind it. Blood=Power. And your surprised that Nightchill got killed? After that strong a curse?
Im far more surprised she even lived close to that long.

As for mortals, QB is up there. But then, he's got loads of souls etc, so has an obvious advantage.

[powermad]

well now im just going to have to stop everybody right now, as we all know the answear is well obviously me. thats right me powermad.im the best magic wielder in the whole of Ireland, let alone the universe. he ha
but seriously i know we havent really seen her but id have to say mother dark easily

[Grief]

Dunno about MD.
I mean, i'd say she's about as strong as Tiam, except Rake killed Tiam and got more powerful, which would make him more powerful.
Her main power seems just to be the fact that she is worshipped by the Andii, giving her more power etc.

Anyway, this is meant to be mortals only, iirc.

Pust seems rather powerful, having dealt easily with Dejim, so I reckon he's got potential.

[Aptorian]

MD is an Elder God/elemental, Tiam is a dragon. Apples and Oranges. We don't know how to compare them but if we are to believe Rake killed Tiam with force and not trickery, then no, Tiam isn't even close to MDs level of power.

Rake drank Tiams blood and gained Draconean powers, it does not mean that he became more powerfull than her or MD, merely that he changed. You can be damned sure that pure blood eleint will always one up the soletaken, unless that soletaken already has other things going for them.

[TeddyGraham]

Tay, Rake, quick ben, Lady Envy, I say bottle could wipe the floor with all of them, simultaneously

[Aptorian]

Must not... use... mod powers... in... glorious display... of...rightious indignation.

Must... instead speak... like... William Shatner.

[L'oric]

Aptorian, on Feb 26 2009, 05:34 PM, said:

Must not... use... mod powers... in... glorious display... of...rightious indignation.

Must... instead speak... like... William Shatner.

This is too much temptation for someone like me to have...I'm glad you can restrain yourself.

Osseric is indeed probably the most powerful mage out there. To compare him against most anyone is probably folly but we have seen because of his stupor or haughty demeanor or for whatever reason he does not just blow up anyone that he comes in contact with. I can think of several mages who have survived against him why not QB and Tay? Its not like I put Osseric below either of the aforementioned mages anyway. I even put him first.

A few points on the two mages below that might now have been discussed in the myriad of posts and threads on these subjects.

I like Sinn but what do we know about her other than she is mentally abnormal right now? Will she get better and does it matter if she doesn't as far as magical ability goes? A sane mind has to count for something. She has some training under a semi-powerful Soletaken Magic user.

Iskaral Pust is awesome him and Mogora should certainly be up there, the "duel" between him and Kruppe was pretty funny even though I didn't understand the logic of it at all. Two mages and not one warren unleashed? Mule and Fistfight in order to not attract attention? Definately right under QB in my mind.

Is Silk still alive? He seemed pretty strong. With the ability to call on Kurald Galain.

L'oric (my namesake) seems to be a strong magic user that absolutely never has a contingency plan that is any good. He also suffers from Nimander's my father will always overshadow me syndrome which is pretty pathetic. All in all we have never seen what he is capable of other than his ability to hide which seems to be on par with any mage. Especially considering that Shiak could never read him very well if at all.

As you can tell I love these type of threads.

Sincerely

[Benji]

Just a quick note about the above post; Silk called on Kurald Thyrlan, not Galain. He seems powerful but he was also performing it in his own base, which should have given him a sizable boost.

[Grief]

Pretty sure that Tiam is more than just a dragon Apt. IIRC she is one of the only beings mentioned not to come from MD, and I get the distinct impression she is equally/almost as old as MD.
Pretty sure she's an Elder God.

Speculating around MD is fairly pointless.
We don't have any reason to believe she's more powerful than the other Elder Gods, and we know Rake can beat them.

But yes, I'm not gonna say Rake is more powerful than her, cause we've no way of knowing.

[Talamadas]

Almost forgot to mention one very powerful group of "mages". The Bole Brothers .
If I remember there is one only one sister among 24 children. An all warlock family.
I really liked the scene in MoI where Korbal or Bauchelin asks what he should "wear for their visit".

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Hmm. I actually understood that the Boles weren't magician but actually repelled magic. Ebron says that and the two Bole brothers in TtH somehow manage to survive the Jaghut wife. I still wonder how they have that capacity. Maybe there's a secret otataral source in Mott Wood.

[Malaclypse]

getting back to the original question posed in this thread: Who would win in a clash of sorcery

Living mortals: never bet against Quick Ben.

Living Ascendants: hmmm, say Rake and Osserc are roughly equal, give Rake the edge based on past victories over Osserc. Osserc couldn't deal with a few Crimson Guard high mages and had to hide. Rake went hunting for Cowl after Cowl damaged Silanah but came back empty-handed. So, Cowl matches up favourably with Rake and Osserc. Topper-as-Ragman seems a good match for Cowl, as does Tays....sooooo, is there anybody who would completely outclass Cowl? aside from QB that is? maybe Gothos or one of the more powerful Gods, Elder or Pantheon. Of the Gods, then, which are stronger wielders of magic? Bugg/Mael seems to be pretty flush with power, not least because he is actively worshipped world(s?)wide, even if he doesn't appeciate the nature of that worship, he's mentioned several times as using the power from his worship, sometimes having to 'justify' his actions in accordance with the nature of the religion(s) revering him. So maybe Mael. I think Gothos would eat Silverfox for a snack so I'm not even going to consider her. Shadowthrone obviously has great magical ability but he's not much of a fighter, he'd probably just piss off and let the Hounds or Cotillion deal with things. Somebody mentioned K'Chain Che'Malle matrons - yeah, 'power to beggar the gods of today...the sorcerous capacity of her whole family...power to keep the Elder Gods from coming to this world, etc, etc.' but Silchas Ruin went toe-to-toe with one and won, as did Scabandari Bloodeye if his cloak is anything to go by...

OK, I say Gothos, he was at that battle and nobody dared mess with him, then proceeded to freeze a continent and keep Death itself from coming to visit for a few hundred thousand years. Also, he had a guy on the payroll building Azath Houses. Talked about Raest like some annoying infection and taunted Kilmandaros and Mael both to their faces

as far as all Ascendants, living or dead, I'd like to see Rake and Gothos face off and now that I've thought about it, I'm sticking with Gothos.

[Grief]

Well, not sure you can consider no one messingw ith Gothos as a positive thing.
He didn't interfere with the battle, so why would they?

As for the death stop, I believe all he actually did was stop Hood. So, Gothos>Hood most certainly.

As for Cowl, he's definetely got power.
However, he's not on par with Rake or Osserc. He survives Rake because Rake wasn't willing to slaughter others needlessly, particularly the guard who were his allies at the time, iirc.
And Osserc wasn't up at his full power.
From what we've seen Tay is more powerful than Cowl, and Osserc and Rake more powerful than Tay.

As for Gothos compared to Rake and Osserc, i'm not sure who. Its certainly close between them.
Thing is with Gothos, it's hard to tell.
No one really does the same kind of stuff, cause he's got an obviously seperate agenda. Such as the azath.
I don't really think his having the guy building the azath shows raw power. It obviously takes some, but its more about being a servant of the azath.

So yeah, Gothos is a hard one to place.

If it came to a straight fight between him and Rake I'd go for Rake, simply cause we've more evidence of his power in fights.
But we've seen neither character on page go into such a fight, so its really hard to tell.

I'd say its better to split into rough groups.

Tier 1:

Rake, Gothos, Osserc, Elder Gods, etc.

These are roughly the same.

Tier 2:

Envy, Spite, some dragons. Possibly Tay?

[Aptorian]

Grief, on Feb 27 2009, 06:53 PM, said:

Tier 1:

Rake, Gothos, Osserc, Elder Gods, etc.

These are roughly the same.

Tier 2:

Envy, Spite, some dragons. Possibly Tay?

No. NO! no, no, no, no... noooooooo.... NOOOOO.... no. No! No I say!

Lets throw all the evidence of prior battles, reputation, fear, legend, etc out of the window and look at capability. We're not talking about fighting strength, notches under the belt or anything else. We're talking of who can wield the most power, who could do the most devestation with what they have at their disposal.

The Elder Gods/Elementals can unmake the world. MD can create a universe for her children. Burn can create new lifeforms and destroy everything on Wu with a yawn. K'rull tore of the top layer of Jacuruku and made an entire warren for it to reside in, admittedly breaking him, but he also holds the entire existing magical system inside his own form. The Elder Gods, and maybe even the House Gods, have such power that it doesn't actually even make sense in the scheme of things going on in the Malazan universe. Other gods syphon of K'rull to do their stuff... think about that.

Could Rake, Osserc, Quick Ben, etc. handle that level of power? no. No way in hell. Could they perhaps beat them in a fight? yes. At least it seems so. For some reason Erikson has not bothered to explain to us, the gods like to battle it out with their fists and swords rather than using the full scale of their power. Icarium in DG says something in the lines of once the gods layed waste to entire cities (like the city they were standing in that Iccy destroyed) but they had since learned. It's something about convergence and presedence, etc. Like the sundering of Emurhlan. As long as the gods all agree to not just go all out, everything can be toned down.

You have to say something like

Over 9000 league - can not be quantified

Elementals
Matrons
EGs
Tyrants

Lesser things - not even close to what the above is able to do

Ascendants

Mortals

[Grief]

Firstly, give me one piece of evidence that Osserc is not in fact an Elder God.

Secondly, there are serious doubts Mother Dark created the universe.

Thirdly, K'rul didn't create the warrens, just made a few of them accessible to humans. He categorised them.

Fourthly, the Elder Gods power, it comes from worship. Sure, they have some without, but not as much. Now, i'm pretty sure that Rake could match an Elder God if he had accepted the worship of the Andii. And since Osserc has failed to reject the Liosans worship from what we know, that gives him tremendous power.

RE, syphoning off K'rul.

Not everyone does. Pretty damn sure that Rake and Osserc don't. Nor do the other Elder Gods. Or Gothos. Etc.
Why, well, it all comes back to blood(note, this is theory, not definete).
It makes utterly no sense that K'rul is the only one with power in his blood. All power comes from chaos, eventually. Other things have it too.
The other Elder gods, for example. Mother Dark has KG in her blood.
Tiam has SD, thus explaining why you can gain it by drinking her blood.
Now, we know Rake has SD in his blood. The andii have KG(this also explains why certain warrens are inaccessible to some but not others). So, Rake can use KG and SD anyway, to a very large level.

So, worship=power.
Well, Osserc has worship. Rake would have worship, if he so wished.
Are the Elder Gods truly irreplaceable, do you think? Because I reckon that, after a million years of MD being gone, and everyone looking to Rake, had he accepted the burde, and they forgotten about her, then he could've became the new EG. Perhaps similar to what Scabby tries?

As for things that the Elders can do that others can't, well, we've seen little evidence of that.
K'rul makes a warren for Jackurucku, but all he's essntially doing is moving it into a different warren. Definetely hard, but we've not seen anyone else try it, so we know know how hard.

Its not really confirmed whether or not MD really made the universe or not.

Ofc burn can kill things. But that's just her having control of her own body. Its not the same as someone else doing it, cause that'd be them attacking something else, not just their own body.

There's also no evidence of them being able to destroy the world. In fact, considering what moving Jackurucku did to K'rul, i'd say its unluikely they could.
They could trigger reactions that would destroy the world, sya by sundering warrens, or waking burn. But thats not the same as doing it themselves.

There also seems to be a difference betewen the power they have in their capacity as an individual, and their capacity in their role as an Elder God.
Probably down to worship. They can do things that fulfuill their worhsippers expectations as an Elder God.
But they have to use their individual power that they have anyhow for other things. Its not easy to use worship power for other stuff, as mael shows.
Probably why they can't bring the force of their worhsip to bear in a fight.

[Hetan]

Lots of interesting stuff here, but I just want to comment on one point: Rake most likely receives power from his worshippers despite his refusal to accept the burden of godhood. He is an Ascendant that is worshipped, thus a God - a Denier, as is Traveller/Dessembrae - don't make me dig up the quotes

[Grief]

Yes, I know he's worshipped, but he seems to be able to deny it.
I reckon theres a point, where you draw on the power of your worshippers to achieve something, and thus acknowledge them.
Its possible he did this in dragnipur, thus becoming a god then.

And i'm not sure dassem has managed to deny his worshippers any more. I mean, they were there in TTH, and he seemed to acknowledge it kinda in RotCG, so its possible he's no longer a denier.

[Malaclypse]

My comments in red within your quote to save me a lot of cutting and pasting

Grief, on Feb 27 2009, 07:43 PM, said:

Firstly, give me one piece of evidence that Osserc is not in fact an Elder God.

Not possible. Osserc is an Elder God. full stop. Mael states it outright.


Secondly, there are serious doubts Mother Dark created the universe.

Absolutely. Every ethnic group/species is going to have its own origin myth. Given the passage involving Silchas Ruin, Udinaas and company early in RG, we might as well operate under the assumption that the elder warrens came into existence at roughly the same time . The Letherii origin myth talks about three original forces - Dolmen (Earth), Fire (pick a light/fire warren) and the Errant- the nudge that puts a bit of Earth within the biosphere of a star, a distance at which liquid water can exist, allowing seas, and thus allowing Mael to exist - that's the way it sounds to me anyway...sensible and almost scientific, progressing in a natural way. It's quite good really. The Andii proclamation that Dark existed before anything else is just an assertion - they have no evidence but they've been around a long time and are spooky so people tend to believe them or at least avoid contradicting them. The Letheriii version is much better in terms of a hypothesis. However, I do agree with Apt that at least some of the 'Elemental Forces' would have powers that could literally alter the world around any opposing magic-wielder - he's quite justified in his vehemence. Anyway, I don't think MD created the universe either


Thirdly, K'rul didn't create the warrens, just made a few of them accessible to humans. He categorised them.
He essentially diverted the flow of the elder warrens and created warrens that were accessible to humans. He didn't create warren power/magic per se, he manipulated the existing power in a fundamental way. This gift may not be particularly useful in battle. His lot seems to involve a lot of sacrifice, tbh.


Fourthly, the Elder Gods power, it comes from worship. Sure, they have some without, but not as much. Now, i'm pretty sure that Rake could match an Elder God if he had accepted the worship of the Andii. And since Osserc has failed to reject the Liosans worship from what we know, that gives him tremendous power.

Hetan touched on this point. Rake and Dassem receive power from their worshippers despite their rejection of godhood. They are unwilling Gods. Steve said a long time ago that and Ascendant with worshippers is a God. It speaks to the subtlety of the man's mind really. Think about what it must be like for a Denier, a de facto god who won't accept the responsibility of godhood but draws power from the relationship anyway. And they're both essentially decent, noble, courageous people, albeit privately obsessed and perhaps that's why they deny it. Just my opinion.

<snip>