[beru]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 23 November 2010 - 04:46 AM, said:

We've seen Tayschrenn do a lot more of that actually. In MoI he kills half the mages of Coral in a fiery blaze, even though he had just been blindsided by Kallor, AND dealing with the warren infestation.

also his blast blew the top third of the wall into oblivon, the dozen mages dident even manage to make a visible diffrence to the wall of flame that he trew at them...

[Lister of Smeg]

jitsukerr, on 23 November 2010 - 11:19 AM, said:

The only thing rivalling it off-screen could be the Matron ritual that called down the CG, or the Ritual of Tellann.

Huh? There was no Matron ritual that called down the CG. That was done by the cabal of summoners to challenge Kallor. The KCCM had nothing to do with it.

[SpectreofEschaton]

Lister of Smeg, on 23 November 2010 - 06:37 PM, said:

jitsukerr, on 23 November 2010 - 11:19 AM, said:

The only thing rivalling it off-screen could be the Matron ritual that called down the CG, or the Ritual of Tellann.

Huh? There was no Matron ritual that called down the CG. That was done by the cabal of summoners to challenge Kallor. The KCCM had nothing to do with it.

Maybe he's thinking of the KCCM ritual that basically invented entropy, opened a hole in the abyss or something? I think it's mentioned in RG. Probably the highest end feat of magic ever to be exhibited in Malazan-world.

This post has been edited by SpectreofEschaton: 04 December 2010 - 04:51 AM

[Urizen]

SpectreofEschaton, on 23 November 2010 - 08:19 PM, said:

Lister of Smeg, on 23 November 2010 - 06:37 PM, said:

jitsukerr, on 23 November 2010 - 11:19 AM, said:

The only thing rivalling it off-screen could be the Matron ritual that called down the CG, or the Ritual of Tellann.

Huh? There was no Matron ritual that called down the CG. That was done by the cabal of summoners to challenge Kallor. The KCCM had nothing to do with it.

Maybe he's thinking of the KCCM ritual that basically invented entropy, opened a hole in the abyss or something? I think it's mentioned in RG. Probably the highest end feat of magic even to be exhibited in Malazan-world.

It's from MT rather than RG but the whole thing is rather suspect in my mind given that the info we have comes from the Tiste Edur and they are, to be blunt, fairly ignorant of the past.

[Sinisdar Toste]

well it is sort of confirmed in DoD. a throwaway thought by sechul lath, to paraphrase, "nothing matters in the end, the Che'Malle saw to that." this indicates to me that the Che'Malle did indeed doom the universe to end at some point.

[The Seguleh 46th]

Sinisdar Toste, on 24 November 2010 - 12:44 AM, said:

well it is sort of confirmed in DoD. a throwaway thought by sechul lath, to paraphrase, "nothing matters in the end, the Che'Malle saw to that." this indicates to me that the Che'Malle did indeed doom the universe to end at some point.

Wasn't it something to do with trapping Mother Dark in some kind of.......something.........not really sure as those few pages flew well above my head.

[champ]

The Seguleh 46th, on 25 November 2010 - 02:42 AM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 24 November 2010 - 12:44 AM, said:

well it is sort of confirmed in DoD. a throwaway thought by sechul lath, to paraphrase, "nothing matters in the end, the Che'Malle saw to that." this indicates to me that the Che'Malle did indeed doom the universe to end at some point.

Wasn't it something to do with trapping Mother Dark in some kind of.......something.........not really sure as those few pages flew well above my head.

iirc she was trapped in a sphere of light which is slowly eroding dark over time

[Ceda Cicero]

champooon, on 25 November 2010 - 06:30 AM, said:

The Seguleh 46th, on 25 November 2010 - 02:42 AM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 24 November 2010 - 12:44 AM, said:

well it is sort of confirmed in DoD. a throwaway thought by sechul lath, to paraphrase, "nothing matters in the end, the Che'Malle saw to that." this indicates to me that the Che'Malle did indeed doom the universe to end at some point.

Wasn't it something to do with trapping Mother Dark in some kind of.......something.........not really sure as those few pages flew well above my head.

iirc she was trapped in a sphere of light which is slowly eroding dark over time

I am hugely paraphrasing here but my recollection is a little different. The KCCM entropy (which I think is a great way to dub it, whoever posted that originally) ritual was a response to the Tiste Andii invasion of Wu, was it not? We are told in MT that the KCCM sent ripples through the gate all the way to the core of Darkness/Mother Dark to ensure that creation would wind down eventually. Not sure. For such a foundational point, it's mentioned very, very briefly. But I do remember it, and I did remember Sech's thoughts around it from DoD. If someone bust out some MT quote fu, that would probably be best.

This kind of fits to me since to SOME degree it seems like KCCM sorcery is gravity and/or time aspected.

EDIT: While I'm at it, my two cents on the magic wielder issue...

Preamble - It's a tough question insofar as Quick is concerned because he clearly has a big unveiling coming up in the finale. But even without knowing what that entails, I still say Quick. He is deft, he is versatile, he is resourceful and he has massive balls when backed into a corner. If I'm being faithful to the original thread title, I have to say Quick. The question isn't necessarily who is the most POWERFUL, or who can bust out the biggest token "coruscating wall of virulent energy," it's who wields magic the best, which I took to mean who does the most shit with it, and who does it with the most finesse. It's definitely Quick.

I can see the argument that Tay is more "powerful," but he has fewer resources and is less deft than Quick (albeit he's still very cunning in a different way.) It's also worth mentioning that, so far as we know, Tay has one primary warren, and that's High Telas, which would seem to be great for gilden flames and massive showdowns even against Anomander Rake ala Pale, but Quick still has a much larger and overall more complex bag of tricks.

This post has been edited by Ciceronian: 03 December 2010 - 09:02 PM

[T'renn]

Tayschrenn

[Luzburg]

Has to be Kuru Qan.


I mean Quick Ben was only able to create an illusion of the magic of the Cedance. That the Edur and letherii flinched back and didn't even try to fight it shows that Qan was the most feared mortal mage that lived. I mean he defeated the power of the crippled god, how many other mortals could just bitch slap three (I think) mages channeling a gods power and then drive back the toughest one of the lot (who was using the bodies of the queen and prince to boost himself) before he got messed about by the errant. The only comparison is Rake dispelling the mage care at pale.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

The point is that we have never seen Kuru Qan, who is undoubtedly powerful, ever use magic without having prepared a ritual before. In the big showdown against Mosag, in particular, he had sat on a tile that connected him to the power of the Cedance for weeks. That said, he sure is in the top 5, no doubt.

[Luzburg]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 11 January 2011 - 06:45 PM, said:

The point is that we have never seen Kuru Qan, who is undoubtedly powerful, ever use magic without having prepared a ritual before. In the big showdown against Mosag, in particular, he had sat on a tile that connected him to the power of the Cedance for weeks. That said, he sure is in the top 5, no doubt.

Well, thats a tad unfair on the man. He was using the sorcery he was trained in, how can you compare his abilities to the likes of Quick Ben when they use two different types of magic. The reason I say Kuru Qan is the greatest wielder is that he was capable of channelling the insane power of the cedance (he could have easily mastered the warrens ).

So maybe we need to divide it into Warren and Hold magic?

Raw power from the Holds and speed from the Warrens..... and whatever from Icarium's thingies.

[Aptorian]

The point of the rituals of the Letherii is that you don't need to exert yourself but rather use something else as a channel so that your weak mortal body doesn't take the brunt of the force. The Ceda was using the weird tile he had been lying on for weeks as the focal point and simply aiming the power at the Warlock King.

The Holds are warrens. There was wandering. Then came a magic system called the Holds. Then came K'rulls magic system called Houses that supplanted the old one. The Holds are described as being primal and less refined than the Houses, but there is not anything to say that one is necessarily superior to the other. The warrens worth is only visibly when it comes into the hands of a capable mage.

[The Tiger of Summer]

Staying away from the K'Chainess (up) in here, and sticking to the raw thread title it would be unfair to point at one magic wielder in the Malazan Universe and try to call him 'the best'. 'Favorite' is something tangible, something that everyone can Oponn-ionate on (frgv pn).
Best Magic Wielder I would have to say is K'rul, as his life force is the essence of the Warrens. We have seen him in weak form true (think the carridge attack with Gruntle and the undead k'chain), however his blood is unquestionably potent and based on that, imo, he trumps.

FAVORITE magic wielder, that's a more interesting post.
Tayschrenn came to mind first, as in terms of a GURPS standpoint, he's incredbily potent for High Mage but he would have lost in a face to face wizard fight against Nightchill, hence the dirty trick outside of Pale.
Rake is Andii, and spawn of Mother Dark, has slaked his thirst on the blood of Tiam, and imho he's the 'rich-boy' of magery... 'got it from his mama' as it were. Inheritance does not impress me much.
Quick Ben is too fuc-ing cagey for me, although I'm glad to have him on our side. I feel as Hedge does, resenting him for keeping distant. Maybe I'm jealous I'm not Kalam.

that takes care of the big guns....
OR DOES IT?!?!

Does Bugg count as a magic wielder? He's a fuc-in Elder God for fucsake. He's a shoe in!

The Crippled God himself, twisted and evil though he may be, is just what the doctor ordered for me. I have dreams about being in the tent with Old Weezey Broken-Hands and the rugged whooping cough. He's my nemesis in real life.

What about Beak? Where would we be without Beak?
Or Sinn? What about Nil Nether Mallet Bluepearl Olar Ethil Baruk KRUPPE?!?!?!

I can't choose, I feel Vastly Blank.

[the Dragon Reborn]

Quick is #2, and heres why...
"I have no hold over him these days, alas. Why? He is too powerful. Too mysterious. Too conniving. Too Hood-damned smart. Indeed, even Shadowthrone has turned his attentions elsewhere." - Cotillion on Quick Ben - (HoC, UK TPB, p.283)
Notice HOC is before Icarium power-up.

Also, you can't just say one is better than all. It depends on the warren. Some warrens would be more useful against one mage than they would another.
Grub beats Tay because he can throw the ground in front of Tays Fire... (Fight with Sinn, and she is the daughter of a firestorm), a.k.a. Tay can't touch him.
Sormo can just ask the closest spirit of the land to eat you.

Kruppe is #1 because if i recall, doesn't he say something along the lines of "I reject magic as a principle" or something like that? As in magic can't touch him because he told magic it didn't exist, and magic listened!!!

[Bauchelain the Evil]

the Dragon Reborn, on 29 January 2011 - 03:25 PM, said:

Also, you can't just say one is better than all. It depends on the warren. Some warrens would be more useful against one mage than they would another.
Grub beats Tay because he can throw the ground in front of Tays Fire... (Fight with Sinn, and she is the daughter of a firestorm), a.k.a. Tay can't touch him.
Sormo can just ask the closest spirit of the land to eat you.




[/i]

Yes and no. Tay would probably be able to turn Bluepearl to smithereens even though the latter uses Ruse and thus "elementally" speaking should be able to beat Telas.

Also, we don't know how powerful Sinn and Grubb are compared to the true heavyweights. Personally, I think Tay is more powerful than them and even if we accept your theory that Grubb would be able to neutralize Telas, Tay can also access other warrens( Mockra, Thyr and Aral Gamelon off the top of my head).

[Siergiej]

Warrens are not Pokemon. I doubt their efficiency is measured by the elemental power they are bound to.

[the Dragon Reborn]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 29 January 2011 - 06:30 PM, said:

the Dragon Reborn, on 29 January 2011 - 03:25 PM, said:

Also, you can't just say one is better than all. It depends on the warren. Some warrens would be more useful against one mage than they would another.
Grub beats Tay because he can throw the ground in front of Tays Fire... (Fight with Sinn, and she is the daughter of a firestorm), a.k.a. Tay can't touch him.
Sormo can just ask the closest spirit of the land to eat you.




[/i]

Yes and no. Tay would probably be able to turn Bluepearl to smithereens even though the latter uses Ruse and thus "elementally" speaking should be able to beat Telas.

Also, we don't know how powerful Sinn and Grubb are compared to the true heavyweights. Personally, I think Tay is more powerful than them and even if we accept your theory that Grubb would be able to neutralize Telas, Tay can also access other warrens( Mockra, Thyr and Aral Gamelon off the top of my head).

Well Tay vs Bluepearl is a bad example. Im not saying that just because you use a certain warren that you beat anybody who uses another warren. It is a mixture of power, skill, and warren. Tay and Bluepearl are on completely different levels in terms of both power and skill. However in a match-up like Tay vs Quick, where power and skill are both on about the same level, the warrens brought to bear are what will decide the day. I agree that Tay could use some on his other warrens, however he doesn't have the same mastery of the others that he does with Telas. I wasn't trying to say that the elemental nature of the warren is the deciding factory, however it is something that should be considered when debating a who-wins type debate...
Speaking of Aral Gamelone, that brings up Bauchelain. Where does he fit in this ranking.

Siergiej, on 29 January 2011 - 09:26 PM, said:

Warrens are not Pokemon. I doubt their efficiency is measured by the elemental power they are bound to.

I understand that warrens are not pokemon, but where are you getting the idea that their efficiency isn't measured by the elemental power they are bound to? If thats the case, why are they tied to elements at all? In a magic system that is based on elements, it is ridiculous to believe that the interactions between those elements in nature plays no part on how they interact with each other.

As an aside on Quick's mastery of the warrens, he uses the chaos warren to travel inbetween all of the warrens, since chaos touches every warren. I have yet to see someone else travel the warren of chaos like Quick does, nor that anyone even thinks about it (Dont think it is possible, maybe...).

"Within the Warren of Chaos, Quick Ben knew of the innumerable shifting pathways that led to doors. Though he called them doors they were in fact barriers created where Warrens touched, a calcretion of energy as solid as basalt. Chaos touched on all realms, with gnarled fingertips bleeding power, the doors hardened wounds in the flesh of other worlds, other avenues of magic." GotM, US HC, p.271

I think this shows a mastery of the lore that is unseen in any other mortal mage...

My top 5:
1. Kruppe
2. Quick
3. Tay
4. Pust
5. Grub/Sin... Maybe Bauchelain (Cause of his demons.)
Also didn't Grub and Sinn f*** up Na'ruk Sky keeps? I believe it is stated that not even Rake can fully unlock their power, yet Tay is awesome cause he damaged 1 when not commanded by the Na'ruk? what about Sinn and Grub who absolutely murderlized them?

[T'renn]

Tays is awesome because he managed to damage one under the command of a god, while killing of another elder god by conjuring a pack of demons. He would have devasted Moon's spawn and the only thing that could have stopped it was rake coming down and taking his soul to Dragnipur

[the Dragon Reborn]

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on 30 January 2011 - 10:05 AM, said:

Tays is awesome because he managed to damage one under the command of a god, while killing of another elder god by conjuring a pack of demons. He would have devasted Moon's spawn and the only thing that could have stopped it was rake coming down and taking his soul to Dragnipur

I said that more as justification for having grub/sinn in the top 5 then to discredi tay...