[Aptorian]

Really? Well, I stand corrected. Always trust in the Errant

[panic686]

One question we are not considering when looking at this topic is what exactly does most powerful mean?

Does it mean sheer power? Does it mean versitility with that power? Does it mean complete mastery over a specific or multiple warrens? Depending on what we mean by most powerful, we can get a slew of answers.

In terms of what I have seen when reading, out of the ostensibly mortal characters I would like to say in my very biased opinion that Quick Ben is the best magic user: large amounts of power, huge versitility, incredible mastery over his warrens, and an ability to use his magic in imaginative ways.

Plus, he did mess up stand up to Icarium after traveling all day> Later fought the soletaken sisters and immediately followed it up with blasting Silchas Ruin after already being exhausted earlier.

[AlanH]

panic686, on Mar 3 2009, 11:03 PM, said:

One question we are not considering when looking at this topic is what exactly does most powerful mean?

Does it mean sheer power? Does it mean versitility with that power? Does it mean complete mastery over a specific or multiple warrens? Depending on what we mean by most powerful, we can get a slew of answers.

In terms of what I have seen when reading, out of the ostensibly mortal characters I would like to say in my very biased opinion that Quick Ben is the best magic user: large amounts of power, huge versitility, incredible mastery over his warrens, and an ability to use his magic in imaginative ways.

Plus, he did mess up stand up to Icarium after traveling all day> Later fought the soletaken sisters and immediately followed it up with blasting Silchas Ruin after already being exhausted earlier.

I'd agree. Also, in GoTM, he manages to get into the shadow realm and out again, before Shadowthrone realises who it is. He also manages to bargain with him - something he needs to be extremely cunning to do. And he manages to control Hairlock who is getting to dangerously powerful levels. Also, as you mentioned, in RG he blasts the soletaken to hell.

[L'oric]

What do you all think being a demon that is a mage adds or subtracts to the best magic wielder. Not that we know all that much about Demons. It seems that some are very powerful in their own right. I think they would make some of the best mages of all really.

What brings me to this is the fact that Vorcan's daughter is some sort of demon soletaken human or demon that can shapeshift into a human through some magical means. Her daughter at least seems to be head and shoulders about Possum and that puts her at the Topper/Cowl level of warren mastery. Of course Topper might be just a bit better than Cowl else he wouldn't have run away from Topper....I think. I doubt we have heard the last of Cowl in any case.

Vorcan herself is described by Raest as a "demon in truth" or something like that. Suggesting to me that she is a full fledged demon from somewhere and she seems pretty damn strong and resilient but not omnipotent.

I can imagine a demon like Greyfrog being almost the best type of wizard. One that always lives to fight another day.

Sincerely

[Grief]

Actually we've not seen QB have much mastery over the warrens.

He uses more than one, but most of the time he's not doing much with them. So, not much evidence of supreme mastery.

In fact, considering other mages can achieve the same effect with fewer warrens, would suggest he is less masterful than them.

Bargaining with shadowthrone, just means not being recognised, and having something shadowthrone wants, namely hairlock. And an escape method.

If ST wanted QB more than he wanted Hairlock, he could go after him more than he does.

[L'oric]

Grief, on Mar 4 2009, 05:11 PM, said:

Actually we've not seen QB have much mastery over the warrens.

He uses more than one, but most of the time he's not doing much with them. So, not much evidence of supreme mastery.

In fact, considering other mages can achieve the same effect with fewer warrens, would suggest he is less masterful than them.

Well not that I think QB is the greatest living mage or most powerful...i am not a fanboy or anything...but Tattersail does say his command of the magic he uses when creating a puppet for hairlock is amazing.

So for that particular ritual which hasn't been done by anyone we know of in a long time he is exceptional in his ability to weild magic.

We also have Bottle's viewpoint of the warren gate QB uses between ships for the Fiddler Card Game in Bonehunters where Bottle mentions something about it being appalingly fast or something.

Then there is the Illusion of meanas during the pannion domin I remember was larger than most people could have done.

I think we got enough QB instances of ability to suggest he is very very good.

I lost my train of thought.
Will get back to this.

[Mazrim]

panic686, on Mar 3 2009, 06:03 PM, said:

One question we are not considering when looking at this topic is what exactly does most powerful mean?

Does it mean sheer power? Does it mean versitility with that power? Does it mean complete mastery over a specific or multiple warrens? Depending on what we mean by most powerful, weed out can get a slew of answers.

QB is the most crafty fighter as everyone has pointed out as he does not fight fair.

In power just sheer power then we have to look at Burn K'rul KCCM and those guys for most powerful

IMHO QB would win a fight as i think he uses what he has to win

[AlanH]

Grief, on Mar 4 2009, 11:11 PM, said:

Actually we've not seen QB have much mastery over the warrens.

He uses more than one, but most of the time he's not doing much with them. So, not much evidence of supreme mastery.

In fact, considering other mages can achieve the same effect with fewer warrens, would suggest he is less masterful than them.

Bargaining with shadowthrone, just means not being recognised, and having something shadowthrone wants, namely hairlock. And an escape method.

If ST wanted QB more than he wanted Hairlock, he could go after him more than he does.

Somebody has already replied to you, but I'm to do it again anyway.

Basically, I think you're wrong. About almost all of that. What about what he did to THREE SOLETAKEN in RG? Or Icarium? And as the previous reply said, and as I am currently re-reading GoTM and read the passage yesterday, Tattersail says that he has a greater mastery of his warrens than anyone she has ever seen. And she is no slouch herself.

I don't really agree with how you simplified the Shadowthorne thing down. You seem to think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that anybody could have done it as long as they couldn't be recognised? So do you think Kruppe could do? Maybe he could wear a mask from the fete? To go into a Gods realm and not be recognised by a God in the place where the God should theoretically be at his most powerful, is more than just basic magic control. (Subtle!) And he did have Hairlock, but are you really saying that you think he showed no cunning there?

Nah, sorry mate. Don't agree with you there.

ps. Also what guy above said.

This post has been edited by AlanH: 05 March 2009 - 12:53 AM

[RangerSG]

Grief, on Mar 4 2009, 05:11 PM, said:

Actually we've not seen QB have much mastery over the warrens.

He uses more than one, but most of the time he's not doing much with them. So, not much evidence of supreme mastery.

In fact, considering other mages can achieve the same effect with fewer warrens, would suggest he is less masterful than them.

Bargaining with shadowthrone, just means not being recognised, and having something shadowthrone wants, namely hairlock. And an escape method.

If ST wanted QB more than he wanted Hairlock, he could go after him more than he does.

Ermm...You do recall ST's reaction when he realized it "was" QB, right? And ST is repeatedly muttering afterwards about not having dealt with him earlier. So it's not just a GoTMism. Also there's the incidents mentioned previously, where other powerful mages have noted his power (Tattersail, his stick-companion in MoI--and through him HOOD at one point, Bottle, and that's off the top of my head). He doesn't declare *himself* a master of a warren, no. That's not his style. His nature was to avoid attention as much as possible. But to say that he lacks the power you have to explain away far too much anecdotal evidence.

And I take the Errant's word on nothing. A more pathetic EG is nowhere to be seen. Also, from what we've seen, the magic of the warrens usually trumps the magic of the holds. Holds have more raw destructive potential, perhaps. But they are unrefined, and thus more than a little inefficient. As powerful as the Ceda supposedly is, he never does more than match the Warlock King (albeit augmented by what's left of the K'Risnan). And that's standing *on* his tile, which seems to be a way of amplifying his connection to the Hold as far as he can in the mortal realm.

[Jumpy]

Well, since the thread's title is "Best Magic Wielder," I'd have to throw Ganoes Paran into the mix. Technically, what he can do with a Deck of Dragons is magic. He controls the deck, which is, if you will, a physical manifestation of the Houses. Which in turn represent their corresponding warrens. If I had to place money on Paran vs. (insert favorite mage here), I'd throw in my lot with Paran.

Unless, of course, it was Quick. That bastard is too clever by far, has the mastery of nine (or eight?) warrens at his disposal, has the power to spank Soletaken dragons(also, Goddesses, according the Tiste Edur), can hold off Icarium (before his power got "nastier") and can throw up illusions good enough to fool practicioners of Hold magic (which he had little experience with -- the holds, I mean). I'd have to say that Adaephon would come out, if not on top, alive against any magic user in the series. As he has proved numerous times.

[panic686]

L'oric, on Mar 4 2009, 11:55 PM, said:

Grief, on Mar 4 2009, 05:11 PM, said:

Actually we've not seen QB have much mastery over the warrens.

He uses more than one, but most of the time he's not doing much with them. So, not much evidence of supreme mastery.

In fact, considering other mages can achieve the same effect with fewer warrens, would suggest he is less masterful than them.

Well not that I think QB is the greatest living mage or most powerful...i am not a fanboy or anything...but Tattersail does say his command of the magic he uses when creating a puppet for hairlock is amazing.

So for that particular ritual which hasn't been done by anyone we know of in a long time he is exceptional in his ability to weild magic.

We also have Bottle's viewpoint of the warren gate QB uses between ships for the Fiddler Card Game in Bonehunters where Bottle mentions something about it being appalingly fast or something.

Then there is the Illusion of meanas during the pannion domin I remember was larger than most people could have done.

I think we got enough QB instances of ability to suggest he is very very good.

I lost my train of thought.
Will get back to this.

Also, in MOI we see hims experiment with indivdual warrens to fly, walk through stone, etc so I do not know how he doesn't show mastery. The fact that in GotM he walked between warrens and through them shows us some of his skills I think

[Aptorian]

I think the battle against that Domin army in MoI, showed what it means to fight a mage who has power over muliple warrens. Quick was juggling half a dozen warrens, using them strategically, and completely pawning them.

[Blues]

Aptorian, on Mar 5 2009, 02:39 AM, said:

I think the battle against that Domin army in MoI, showed what it means to fight a mage who has power over muliple warrens. Quick was juggling half a dozen warrens, using them strategically, and completely pawning them.

That battle is actually one of the few times we see QB and Tay in action as battle mages attached to an army. QB was juggling warrens, using illusion and landslides to destroy the Pannion's forces, while Tay unleashes a single wave of golden fire which wipes out over a dozen of the enemy Pannion mages on the wall.


Edit: Of course this still really doesn't tell us much about either character because this took place before Quick's Iccy power-up and right after Tay got hit with a bolt of Kallor chaos crap courtesy of CG. However its still interesting the different way each mage fought.

This post has been edited by Blues: 06 March 2009 - 07:14 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

QB was messin them pannions up. i remember he teleported three waves of sorcery from the hilltop right back into the pannion ranks.

[Tattersail_]

Beak!!! Beak was uber powerful, just because he was a simpleton! what about Sinn, Grub, Nether and Nil? Sormo? I say beak was powerful. My top 5 mortal magi are:

Tayschrenn
Quick Ben
Beak
Grub
Sinn

[Quick Bill]

My God people, Kruppe! Kruppe confounds high mages and ascendants left, right, and centre. His power is beyond all comprehension. Even SE who created him can't grasp his full ability and potential.

The entire shebang is lucky his ambitions are not malicious and malignant else he would bring down utter chaos through confusion and annoyance alone. Imagine what he could do if he really wanted to.

[Quick Bill]

Tattersail, on 07 September 2010 - 01:54 PM, said:

Beak!!! Beak was uber powerful, just because he was a simpleton! what about Sinn, Grub, Nether and Nil? Sormo? I say beak was powerful. My top 5 mortal magi are:

Tayschrenn
Quick Ben
Beak
Grub
Sinn

None could stand against Kruppe and his mule. He would have them running in circles.

[Tattersail_]

Is Kruppe a mere mortal though? I have always thought of him as something more..

[Quick Bill]

Kruppe is no mere mortal, but he is - as far as we know - a mortal. He is more than most mortals that is for sure. He has an uncanny ability to make any situation turn out in his favor. I am currently re-reading MoI and have encountered many many situations where he confounds all who oppose him or even deal with him in any way. There is the situation with him standing down Brood's hammer, and later in the book, after Hetan has had her way with him, he turns the tables on her in some form of glorious sexual performance.

Kruppes power is unexplainable I am convinced of that, but he does appear to be a mortal.

[Sanctume]

Caladan Brood and Burn's Hammer > all. Use it, and every civilization is dead. Game Over.