[Otataral Toblakai]

H.D., on 19 September 2009 - 08:04 AM, said:

I'm not confused. Cuttle is obviously the best with a sword.

AHAHAHAHA!! Damn, that made my day! At first I was confused, like, what the? but then got it..

[Aptorian]

Otataral Toblakai, on 30 October 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

In terms of ability, experience, i'd say the First Seguleh. Although we havent as yet read about him/her, the Third defeated Onos Toolan (first sword of the Tlan Imass) so it goes without saying that the First is way beyond.

No it doesn't.

There is also politics involved in the Seguleh hierarchy. The first sent Mok away because he was a threat to the First. It could very well be that Mok is a better fighter than the First is, as of MoI they just haven't fought to decide who is the best.

The second has not been in the Segulah society for thousands of years, there is no way to tell if he is still among the best Seguleh.

Also there is the whole question of whether being undead makes you slower or not, meaning alive Tool could have been a better fighter than undead Tool.

Otataral Toblakai, on 30 October 2010 - 09:07 PM, said:

Even the son of darkness ranks 6th, I think, where Seguleh are concerned - and he is pretty damn a swordsman as the (now deceased or ascended) wielder of Dragnipur.

That was a long time ago, probably thousands of years. A lot of things could have changed. Maybe there are plenty of Seguleh that could give Rake a run for his money.

You also have to remember that Rake only stopped at the 7th, because he was too tired. At the time he may have been able to challenge even the First, it just so happens that the last guy he fought was the 7th.

Blueiron, on 30 October 2010 - 11:07 PM, said:

Also Where is Temper on this list?

Temper is great at defensive positions, but he is not skilled at defeating highly skilled sword fighters. If the goal was a stale mate, him and Trull, would be great candidates.

[Blueiron]

Aptorian, on 31 October 2010 - 10:42 AM, said:

Temper is great at defensive positions, but he is not skilled at defeating highly skilled sword fighters. If the goal was a stale mate, him and Trull, would be great candidates.

How is defensive ability not an indicator of skill? His task was to stop Sergen, that champion, so that's what he did. Take the scaled-down example of Braven Tooth vs Tar: Braven tooth could not hit Tar; Tar just waited until Braven Tooth was dead tired. I agree with you that Temper was not as good as his oppenent (he lost) but he's still pretty tough.

[Silencer]

Defensive is a great indicator of skill, but characters who have a balance (or, rather, an excess in both aspects) of defense and offense will win every time. If you consider what happened with Trull and Icarium - he had the defensive skill, but even if he had a chance at wearing Icarium down (and let's face it, it was a significant enough feat to temporarily stop him, let alone wear him down), Icarium's weapon just ended up cutting through Trull's, essentially. So barring a rule that 'no-one's weapon breaks' or something, you have to consider that the real offensive powerhouses often have an edge over the defensive guys (at least when you consider mortals vs ascendants, ofc).

Temper, for example, may have been able to stonewall even Dassem for a time - but enough to wear Dassem out? He's probably too smart for that, lol.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Blueiron, on 31 October 2010 - 10:06 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 31 October 2010 - 10:42 AM, said:

Temper is great at defensive positions, but he is not skilled at defeating highly skilled sword fighters. If the goal was a stale mate, him and Trull, would be great candidates.

How is defensive ability not an indicator of skill? His task was to stop Sergen, that champion, so that's what he did. Take the scaled-down example of Braven Tooth vs Tar: Braven tooth could not hit Tar; Tar just waited until Braven Tooth was dead tired. I agree with you that Temper was not as good as his oppenent (he lost) but he's still pretty tough.

But that's the point. Surgen wasn't able to take Dassem even when he was wounded(thus making it clear that he was no way the same level as the very good swordsmen of the series) yet destroyed Dassem's Sword and beat Temper. Thus Temper can't be mentioned in the same league as all the others mentioned in this thread.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 02 November 2010 - 09:37 AM

[Silk]

but Temper's job is to stop you in your tracks... kinda like

Spoiler

the Kallor battle with (can't remember the name right now) Rakes Stand in

This post has been edited by Silk: 02 November 2010 - 11:08 AM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 02 November 2010 - 09:37 AM, said:

But that's the point. Surgen wasn't able to take Dassem even when he was wounded(thus making it clear that he was no way the same level as the very good swordsmen of the series) yet destroyed Dassem's Sword and beat Temper. Thus Temper can't be mentioned in the same league as all the others mentioned in this thread.

Wellll...the only reason he didn't take Dassem out was that Temper stood in the way and allowed the two other surviving members of the Sword to get Dassem the hell out of there. It is very strongly implied that Surgen would likely have been able to kill Dassem in his injured state, though he still cut through all the normal swordsman like they were cardboard cutouts.

[blackzoid]

This thread is still going? Goddamm!

Sombra, on 30 October 2010 - 03:54 PM, said:

Strip them all of their krazy kewl powerz, and compare pure technique, dexterity and physical speed (Karsas warren comes under krazy kewl powerz). It becomes fairly obvious that Dassem, Rake (doesn't seem to use powerz in swordplay but I could be wrong) and Brys are the frontrunners, with Trull right up there. Chuck in Mok and Tool and that's pretty much it. The rest are GOOD, don't get me wrong, just NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

EDIT: characters with little screen time, like CPL Blues, are hard to judge so they go into the "also-ran" pile until they pull something awesome out of their arses.

Ya, I'd go along with this. Sorry Karsa, but I don't think you're in the top leagues just yet. Keep practicing and ascending.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 02 November 2010 - 03:49 PM

[Silencer]

Erm. Dassem's will to not be beaten is probably half of the reason he's good.

Anomander Rake is immortal, ascendant, and the son of an Elder God. How, exactly, can we judge the skills without factoring in these things? We have no idea if Dassem is only good because his willpower makes him move faster, or swing harder. We have no idea if Seguleh don't take steroids, ffs. A bit ridiculous if they do, but you can only take it on what we've seen, and in that sense we can't tell if Rake is using magic to enhance his capabilities. O.o

[Tsundoku]

@Apt
According to your logic, Barry Allen or Wally West would be the greatest swordsmen ever.
EDIT: make that Superman, what with all the super-strength and invulnerability. Even though he is susceptible to magic, being that strong and fast makes him unbeatable, especially when he could take out opponents before they are aware of him.

"Best Swordsman" is a reference to SKILL. "Highest Body Count" is something else entirely.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 07 November 2010 - 02:24 AM

[SkunkMonk]

Comments on the original list :-

1 I think that there is more potential with rakes sword than just a one hit kill as its wielded by an imortal alien race with pure tiste blood aswell as draconean so i think his power is almsot limitless bearing in mind the will of the wielder behind such a deadly combination he his i believe the most dangerouse being alive shoould anyone seek to contest his will by standing against his blade
2 ) The power that grief can gift dassem and indeed any wielder is down to the will as mentioned by andarist if the wielder has an supreme command over his will then it is also too potentially limitless, dassems skill with a blade is that of a superior elite swordsmaster, if there was ever a staged swordsman competiotion dassem would be have high odds to win i think being one of the favourites perhaps.
3 ) Mok and indeed the seguleh as a race has a ttechnique identical to dassem as master sergeant braven tooth says to banashcar in coops after speaking with mudslinger upon hearing ofa "foreigner" upon drift avalii "its the one named foreigner im interested in, something about him sounds familiar, the style of his fighting, how he kills quick and clean without breaking into a sweat" the seguleh are superior swordsmen with a society dedicated to the sword and somewhat fanatical training they have taken it as a form of art breaking it down into minute detail observing every style every possible manouver like studying a game of chess i think very little about swordsmanship is unknown to the seguleh. Mok himself as said by lady envy is coming into his own power the first sending him away possibly fearing a confrontation which he may not walk away from and the secound being missing mok is potentialy the finest of the finest trained swordsman in the world. I would not be surprised to hear that dassem was schooled by the seguleh too.
4 ) Although onoss was beaten by Mok i think that the distinction of him being an imass is a valid point to raise. Now onoss being "awakened" i think could up the anty with anyone chalenging him as hinted at when standing at Trulls side guarding the first throne when Onoss spoke about being frustrated and then said to trull that he will see upon the next wave of attackers a thing that monock and ibra gollam cannot achieve an imass awakened to anger
5 ) Silchas the one who drank deepest upon the blood of tiam more draconean than his siblings great potential in this get of mother dark but not the will needed maybee already suprassed in power by Rud Ellale and unaware of the potentialy fatal error, successfully ambushed by Scabandari Bloodeye the slayer of the edur royal family meening that silchas should of known better than to even for a secound turn his back on such a treacherouse entity.
6 ) Icarium i believe has great skill with a sword but his threat lies in more of when his anger rises and becomes uncontrolable where i think he then lays waiste using warrens instead of sword, successfully ambushed by the Dejim N'brahl, said ambush i believe would not of been successful to others mentioned in this list whose senses i believe are superior which i am of the oppinion that said senses would make a greater swordsman. With regards to the azath he tried to free his father from Phryis says that it was at the end of its lifespan and as a reply to an earlier comment he didnt kill it he left it mortally wounded he didnt actually deliver the killing blow i think had he done so it would of left him in a state of unrecoverable madness
7 ) Skinner i believe is truly great his link to the guard's ritual and the armour gifted to him by ardata gifts him with supernatural ability, but he met his match in dassem whose possibly one of the greatest living swordsman alive that being said dassem didnt kill skinner which i believe he may not be capable of doing i think the only other swordsman who could kill skinner in a fight without unleashing warrens would be karsa or anamandaris he might losse a limb or two fighting mok/rell/brys or other seguleh but i think he would not be defeated utterly by them
8 ) Greymane a truly great swordsman with great will and strengh of endurance but out of his league against immortals or accendants or fanatical devotess of the way of a master swordsman
9 ) Brys Beddict here is a swordsman with unnatural ability equal to that of a seguleh master bladesman his style is truly deadly and horifyingly precise hes deffinately a swordsman who has perfected his trade that being said i think he could hold his own against the best of the best. How many others have effectivly deliverd surgical precision on there enemies with a sword no less, a comment i read on the first page about this being easy was a bit unimaginative the precission involved with doing something of that nature is just uncomprahensible
10 ) Karsa Orlang a truly dreadfull apparation of a being, a 7ft mountain of a hybrid whose a warren unto himself with a will honned into a weapon this being i believe has the endurance to see a fight unto the very end i believe that only a small handfull of known bladesmasters could be left standing when faced against this hood aweful natural cold blooded killer beru fend whoever pisses this guy off- maybee not the most skilled brute force and strengh of will alone makes this being a true champion
11 ) WhiskeyJack captain of the bridgeburners for how long ? was in the thick of how many campaigns that are legends within the malazan army ? while sparring with dassem he held his own and it was no mean feat for dassem to break his guard this in my oppinionis worthy of placing his name with these premier leaugue swordesmasters
12 ) Gruntle once awoken to anger and gifted with the power of becoming treaches mortal sword was a hood spawned nightmare his feline like graceness would of made this caravan guard captain frighteningly fast and wielding two sabres would of made him a most deadly adversary i think the only thing missing to make this one of the greatest is the deadley techniques and training known by other devotees of the blade.
the others mentioned in the list i dont believe are in the same devision as these mentioned here. I think there is two people missing though and thats cottillion and apsalar i know that cottillion uses a blade and a rope but hes a natural born killer and i believe potetionaly one of the best. Apsalar also uses long knives but still a baldesmaster fith hood damned natural talent. With all that being said i would like to make a list of the above mentioned names in the order i believe are the greatest of swordemen

My Top 15

1 - Anamadar Rake
2 - Karsa Orlang
3 - Dassem Ultor
4 - Cottillion
5 - Silchas
6 - Skinner
7 - Brys Beddict
8 - Mok
9 - Onoss (unbound from the ritual and so awakened)
10 - Icarium
11 - Apsalar
12 - Gruntle
13 - Greymane
14 - Rell (from Storey's unit in Li Heng ( although no longer under the tutelauge of the Seguleh he would of learned enough to of built the foundations of his trainiing and honed his skill into perfection)
15 - Whiskey Jack ( I know he lost against kallor but there was a guess set on him by none other than hood himself so he only lost due to a sever handicap in my eyes. Indeed did it not say that he would not of fully extended himself and in doing so exposing himself so fataly unless he had kallor beat
16 - And last but certainly in no way least this place goes to Iskaral Pusts apparantly benign but truth be known diabolically evil donkey - i was going to save this last spot for the toad of ormulogun due to that sharp tongue of his which flings linguistic blades of such wounding critisism at ormulogun ( also would like to add that only Erikson could write of a toad shrugging in his books -) but the donkey and that scheming that can be seen hidden there behind that doefull liquid brown eyes is in my oppinion evil incarnate ( i think the donkey is also the get of Pust and the Bhokarala Matron from his Raraku Temple)

Hmmm after being reminded of the fight between Rake and Draconus lasted three days ive reconsidered and think that Draconus deserves secound place
also does lassen deserve a place on the list ??? leader and founder of the claw, fighting Avowed bare handed, assassin of dancer and kelanved ?

This post has been edited by SkunkMonk: 08 November 2010 - 02:26 AM

[SkunkMonk]

just read how someoen mentioned i hate how people underestimate kallor, ive given this some thought and i must admit that during the wj kallor fight it must be remembered that kallor disablled korlat which i imagine is no meen feat as well as two bridgeburners who were fond of the phrase always an even trade so i guess they were used to protecting mages and id imagine that the fights can get as hoarsy as hoods ears standing next to a mage during a pitched battle so they sound pretty tough he done all that then turned to wj and tried to take him down too. Then i think of the fight between him and traveller and was really unimpressed byb Kallor here true he was outmatched but still you would expect more from a once emperor who was at his height reportadly the most skilled sowrdsman around. No with Kallor i think it is just as Brood said he chooses his enemies carefully

[SkunkMonk]

Grief, on 02 December 2008 - 09:44 PM, said:

Grizzin Farl postes Bredd.



Haha, see what I did there again.
This is however, getting spammy, so I think it might be better to stop.

On the topic:

Rake
Draconus
Dassem

Is how I believe listy should start.
Rake and Draconus' fight lasted 3 days, and I feel that he is probably better than Dassem, though only just.
Also, perhaps Osric, who has fought Rake(thought lost) and ignores dassem, should be up there too.

theres simply not enough of Osserc known to try placing him in the list. Good point though.

would be nice to see a mini series about the travels of Rake T'riss Envy Osserc and whoever else was involved in those travels or if it was close or during the time when they were battling chaos then more about that would be just as good

[champ]

SkunkMonk, on 08 November 2010 - 01:31 AM, said:

just read how someoen mentioned i hate how people underestimate kallor, ive given this some thought and i must admit that during the wj kallor fight it must be remembered that kallor disablled korlat which i imagine is no meen feat as well as two bridgeburners who were fond of the phrase always an even trade so i guess they were used to protecting mages and id imagine that the fights can get as hoarsy as hoods ears standing next to a mage during a pitched battle so they sound pretty tough he done all that then turned to wj and tried to take him down too. Then i think of the fight between him and traveller and was really unimpressed byb Kallor here true he was outmatched but still you would expect more from a once emperor who was at his height reportadly the most skilled sowrdsman around. No with Kallor i think it is just as Brood said he chooses his enemies carefully

he totally sucker punched Korlat and that's the only reason he was able to disable her so easily... conked her on the head whilst she wasn't looking!

[Ulrik]

I would like to point, that Kallor defeated Andii swordsman Tier 1, Spinnock IWalkAssail Durav... People thinking that Kallor isnt in top 5 are...naive... Poor special BB guardians got three seconds... and got owned by Dassem, but yeah, Dassem is best (you can debate, you can doub, but thats all you can do...damn, this czech phrase surely wont work way it should:)).

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Ulrik, on 08 November 2010 - 11:17 AM, said:

I would like to point, that Kallor defeated Andii swordsman Tier 1, Spinnock IWalkAssail Durav... People thinking that Kallor isnt in top 5 are...naive... Poor special BB guardians got three seconds... and got owned by Dassem, but yeah, Dassem is best (you can debate, you can doub, but thats all you can do...damn, this czech phrase surely wont work way it should:)).

I'm not knocking Kallor, but I think a statement like one I bolded is one you might make without thinking too long and hard about the sheer amount of people in this world. Would you be shocked if say, Anomander, Dassem, Icarium, Brood, or Karsa beat him?

I'm not saying thats the top 5 in any specific order, but I think it shows that its difficult to put almost anyone in there just because there are so many badass characters in the books. Ranking the martial efficacy of people in the books (perhaps outside the top 2 or 3) is incredibly difficult, because there are a lot of great fighters, its just difficult to compare them.

[Ulrik]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 08 November 2010 - 04:54 PM, said:

Ulrik, on 08 November 2010 - 11:17 AM, said:

I would like to point, that Kallor defeated Andii swordsman Tier 1, Spinnock IWalkAssail Durav... People thinking that Kallor isnt in top 5 are...naive... Poor special BB guardians got three seconds... and got owned by Dassem, but yeah, Dassem is best (you can debate, you can doub, but thats all you can do...damn, this czech phrase surely wont work way it should:)).

I'm not knocking Kallor, but I think a statement like one I bolded is one you might make without thinking too long and hard about the sheer amount of people in this world. Would you be shocked if say, Anomander, Dassem, Icarium, Brood, or Karsa beat him?

I'm not saying thats the top 5 in any specific order, but I think it shows that its difficult to put almost anyone in there just because there are so many badass characters in the books. Ranking the martial efficacy of people in the books (perhaps outside the top 2 or 3) is incredibly difficult, because there are a lot of great fighters, its just difficult to compare them.

(Ulrik scratches his head) Yup...the Top 5 part was...shot from hip, you are right. You are mooooore right in bolded part (really, I in fact hate these threads, because its hard to compare...except really big differencies like Mok vs Mhybe).

[PeteW]

What about Yedan Derryg?

He toasted a Forkrul Assail like it was a small child (and we have seen them go nasty on others) then wasted 4 Liosan pretty easily.

Where would he fit in?

[The Seguleh 46th]

PeteW, on 03 January 2011 - 10:02 PM, said:

What about Yedan Derryg?

He toasted a Forkrul Assail like it was a small child (and we have seen them go nasty on others) then wasted 4 Liosan pretty easily.

Where would he fit in?

The Watch is badfuckingass!

[Aptorian]

PeteW, on 03 January 2011 - 10:02 PM, said:

What about Yedan Derryg?

He toasted a Forkrul Assail like it was a small child (and we have seen them go nasty on others) then wasted 4 Liosan pretty easily.

Where would he fit in?

The problem with the FAs in DOD is that they seem to have been Vanilla FA while the two other strong FA we saw were most likely Ascendants and/or even gods. As for the Liosan, well, they hardly have the reputation of the Seguleh at this point. The thing about the Andii surrounding Rake, the one we know of clashing with the Malazans, etc. were the last and probably the best. The Liosan we've met so far on the other hand seem to come from a whole world of Liosan. There's probably millions if not billions of them, the ones we saw could just be the average footsoldier of a rural community or something.

But the ease with which he dispatches these creatures certainly shows that he is good.

Personally I was always more curious about what kind of skill it took to kill one hundred shake shamans. Okay, they are not exactly battle mages, but surely there must have been a potency to them.

This post has been edited by Jenisapt Rul: 04 January 2011 - 07:45 AM