[Bauchelain the Evil]

Unfortunately the WJ-Kallor fight can't be used to measure the prowess of neither one. WJ had a bad leg and Kallor tripped.
Also I hate how so many underestimate Kallor. Sure he isn't Dassem Ultor or Rake but still powerful and skilled guys like K'rul, Korlat, Spinnok, think several time that he is a great warrior.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 12 September 2009 - 04:37 PM

[Silk]

One can take WJ's measure as the it was Dujek who made the quote about WJ spared with Dassem and it took him a while to get through his guard ... when it comes to Kallor, there is in one of the books a part where someone asks if he has been up against Dassem, Skinner, The First etc... something of a ranking ... I might have to find this quote....

[drinksinbars]

think it was brood commenting on how kallor had never been beaten as he chose his targets well.

[Amaterasu]

would love to know how Seguleh 1st fights. I don't think ascendents should count, they have unfair advatanges. Brys for me is the out and out all natural swordsman. At least he's the one I respect the most after Tool.

[Cropsalar]

I didn't read the entire topic, so this may have been posted before! ( If so, my pardons good folk )

But Yeddan and skulldeath weren't mentioned where I had read...

Both seem pretty damn formiddable. Especially Yedan, who destroys a Forkrul Assail... alone... with ease....

WHAT THE HELL?!?!

Rhulad, Trull and Fear... ( maybe others, I haven't read that book in ages ) and two demons didn't manage to beat one.
Karsa and the two toblakai all got beaten to a pulp by one.

But Yeddan kills one easily!? And those Liosan??! and tons of witches and stuff?!

JEESH!

[Silencer]

Must...resist...GAH.

Even though the Third beat Tool in a fight?

Dammit. Not again...not ever again...

[Aptorian]

Cropsalar, on 18 September 2009 - 11:33 PM, said:

I didn't read the entire topic, so this may have been posted before! ( If so, my pardons good folk )

But Yeddan and skulldeath weren't mentioned where I had read...

Both seem pretty damn formiddable. Especially Yedan, who destroys a Forkrul Assail... alone... with ease....

WHAT THE HELL?!?!

Rhulad, Trull and Fear... ( maybe others, I haven't read that book in ages ) and two demons didn't manage to beat one.
Karsa and the two toblakai all got beaten to a pulp by one.

But Yeddan kills one easily!? And those Liosan??! and tons of witches and stuff?!

JEESH!

The Forkrul Assail we meet in KL is most likely not in the same league as Calm and Serenity. I think you should take the difference like trying to compare Ganath with Raest or Gothos. That said, Yedan did seem like a formiddable warrior. I just don't have any idea of how I would compare him to the rest.

As for Skulldeath... I don't know about that guy. His talent seems more one of surprise and depending upon how much space he has to move. I think the great swordsmen on the list would wait until the idiot jumped into the air and then run him through 5 times before he hit the ground.

[HoosierDaddy]

I invoke my presence. Tavore wins.

[Aptorian]

A wild Snorlax appears, HD is confused.

[Silencer]

Cropsalar, on 18 September 2009 - 11:33 PM, said:

I didn't read the entire topic, so this may have been posted before! ( If so, my pardons good folk )

But Yeddan and skulldeath weren't mentioned where I had read...

Both seem pretty damn formiddable. Especially Yedan, who destroys a Forkrul Assail... alone... with ease....

WHAT THE HELL?!?!

Rhulad, Trull and Fear... ( maybe others, I haven't read that book in ages ) and two demons didn't manage to beat one.
Karsa and the two toblakai all got beaten to a pulp by one.

But Yeddan kills one easily!? And those Liosan??! and tons of witches and stuff?!

JEESH!

My last post was @Amaterasu.
Missed this post.

I would like to point out that Dust of Dreams has not been out for very long, and this thread was only recently shifted into the DoD forum. That's why Yedan hasn't been mentioned yet - it would've been a spoiler. Plus, we see in DoD that there is a layering of skill levels in the FA same as any other race, which has already been pointed out.

[HoosierDaddy]

I'm not confused. Cuttle is obviously the best with a sword.

[Fist Gamet]

These threads are SE's sick sense of humour borne out to plague us!!!

As much as I hated the guy at first (and for some time) I just can't see anyone defeating Karsa in a straight fight. Sure, Dassem is extraordinary and we just don't know about the Seguleh First, and Icarium is an enigma, but Karsa posessess a physical strength, brutality and pure awesome badassedness to compliment his martial prowess and fearlessness. He would never fight fair and can deliver punishment with or without weapons.

[Sorry]

Haha, wow, it's been some time since I've checked out these threads... Again I must bring up the question: Do we look at sword skill, or best fighter? It's safe to say that Some characters (such as Trull Sengar) would suck in an actual sword fight, but would own in a battle where they were able to choose a weapon.

All in all, I've seen the error of my ways and would now like to list Corabb as winning. Seriously. Just think about it.

[Aptorian]

Trull is not in these discussions because we think he would be a great sword fighter. He's in them because he's met or fought some of the best.

[NickO]

I really don't see why people keep saying that Anomader let himself get killed by Dassem and that Rake could've easily beat Dassem if he so willed it. It's mentioned several times in the series that the wielder of vengeance/grief is unbeatable if they posses the singular will demanded. Which means that Dassem is the #1 swordsman no matter what. Even if Rhulad had stepped in his path with his cursed blade.

Yes, Rake probably set himself up in the way so that the killing blow would come from Dragnipur but I don't see in any shape or form that Rake would be able to beat Dassem in the long run.

On kinda related note, People also bring up the point "Well Rake could've beaten easily Dassem through his warren" but then you are obviously overlooking the fact that Dassem himself, is a god (Dessembrae - Lord of Tragedy) so not even that angle is just to be assumed.

This post has been edited by NickO: 29 October 2010 - 11:21 PM

[Tsundoku]

Strip them all of their krazy kewl powerz, and compare pure technique, dexterity and physical speed (Karsas warren comes under krazy kewl powerz). It becomes fairly obvious that Dassem, Rake (doesn't seem to use powerz in swordplay but I could be wrong) and Brys are the frontrunners, with Trull right up there. Chuck in Mok and Tool and that's pretty much it. The rest are GOOD, don't get me wrong, just NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

EDIT: characters with little screen time, like CPL Blues, are hard to judge so they go into the "also-ran" pile until they pull something awesome out of their arses.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 30 October 2010 - 03:56 PM

[worry]

Stripping away their powers makes it a different character though.

[Aptorian]

Sombra, on 30 October 2010 - 03:54 PM, said:

Strip them all of their krazy kewl powerz, and compare pure technique, dexterity and physical speed (Karsas warren comes under krazy kewl powerz). It becomes fairly obvious that Dassem, Rake (doesn't seem to use powerz in swordplay but I could be wrong) and Brys are the frontrunners, with Trull right up there. Chuck in Mok and Tool and that's pretty much it. The rest are GOOD, don't get me wrong, just NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

EDIT: characters with little screen time, like CPL Blues, are hard to judge so they go into the "also-ran" pile until they pull something awesome out of their arses.

Wait, what?

Karsa for example is not super fast, strong and durable because of his powers. That is genetic. His bones are hard as stone, his flesh is like wood. His bodymass is several times as dense as a human beings. He regenerates ridiculously fast. He has several spare organs making him less vulnerable to organ damage and fatigue. On top of that he has spent some 80 years of his life running around in the Laederon Mountains kicking ass, honing his martial abilities to such an extent that when he first met a human settlement it was like watching a sherman tank cruising through a French peasant village. AND THEN he got all ascendant and shit.

Rake I am guessing was the epitomy of Andii genetics, created by an Elder God to be a King among her children. He's some 7 feet tall. Has half a million years of experience in kicking ass. Even with out ascendant powers he would have been far stronger, faster and durable than any human. Take a look at Sandalath, an ordinary Andii woman, for an example of how strong the Andii are. She back handed Withal nonchalantly and smacked him through a wall.

Then you have creatures like the Jaghut and FA. Again. Their strengths are genetic. Not magical. Try killing a vanilla Forkrul Assail with a sword, good luck with that. Yes, the watch was very good at that, but he was hardly facing the best the FA have to offer.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 30 October 2010 - 04:25 PM

[Otataral Toblakai]

In terms of sheer strength and power, i'd say Karsa Orlong with his flint sword. This is the guy that may have bested Icarium in a duel. He is responsible for the death of many Hounds of Darkness - two single handedly and then the rest alongside High House Death's knight - the second masked warrior dude (forgot the name). This is the guy that defeated the Tiste Edur king.

In terms of ability, experience, i'd say the First Seguleh. Although we havent as yet read about him/her, the Third defeated Onos Toolan (first sword of the Tlan Imass) so it goes without saying that the First is way beyond. Even the son of darkness ranks 6th, I think, where Seguleh are concerned - and he is pretty damn a swordsman as the (now deceased or ascended) wielder of Dragnipur.

A fight between the First Seguleh and Karsa Orlong would be one truly worth watching.

Apart from these, in no particular order, we have:

Onos Toolan
Second Seguleh
Third Seguleh
Kallor
Anomander Rake
Dassem Ultor
The best amongst the Crimson Guard
The first human mortal sword of the Kche Che Malle (the red mask dude)

[Blueiron]

Where do we draw the line between personal skill and that which is granted by equippment (eg Grief/Vengence), patronage (eg, Dassem being hood's Knight, Patroned champions of 7cities), and miscellanious things like Tool (as an undead) being able to take blows that would kill mortals, and intentionally using this to his advantage?
Does relying on better armour indicate lower skill, or just appropriate use of all your advantages?

Also Where is Temper on this list?