[Vaddon Ra]

HiddenOne, on 24 July 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

I think he was shaken to become aware that he is not the most ultimate badness in the world at swordplay. There is a lesson that must be learned "There;s always someone better than you" - it is often forgotten by those who think themselves the best at something

It didn't affect him though, he wasn't scared and scarred he was... humbled, he still likes Dassem, they were pals so I feel like for Karsa at that moment he had finally found something to strive for martially... If it came down to a fight between Karsa and Dassem/Rake he would probably lose with swords... but I doubt Erikson would ever write that as it would be hollow... instead a confrontation would more realistically involve a few sword swings... then something brute force related... a punch in the kidneys or...perhaps.. a shrugging off of any magic due to having injected otataral steroids most of his adult life
He would certainly win in an arm wrestle

[peaked in highschool osserc]

I wonder what would happen if rake ever decided on killing icarium and putting him in draginpur? Would icariums rage be enough to break draginpur from the inside?

This post has been edited by Dessembrae Lord of Tragedy: 18 April 2015 - 02:23 PM

[Anomander Dragnipurake]

sacase, on 07 February 2009 - 09:05 PM, said:

QUOTE (BeLeG @ Feb 7 2009, 03:34 PM) sacase when was Rake defeated in a swordfight?Did the Seguleh beat him?No
Tell me is there anyone else who has killed a score of Seguleh without a pause?
Even Tool was hard-pressed by an un-ranked Thurule.Rake killed a score of Seguleh and then he beat their seventh best swordsman.And then he left because because he was physically tired.So what?What does that prove in terms of sword-skill?Absolutely nothing.
So,who's making things up?

The Dessem Rake arguement and the Seguleh Rake arguement are actually two different arguements. Now back to the task at hand.

Ok, so now you admitted that Rake was exhausted. Good. Now remember, Rake fought an Elder God for 3 days strait. 3 days vs. 2 hours. I think that says alot about how hard the Seguleh pressed Rake. You don't get exuasted killing 20 people without pause. Rake is also not one to back down from a challenge. Rake has no issues about condemming people to his sword. On the hill with WJ, he was going to do it, but WJ killed them instead. He was also going to put the Wizards of Pale in his sword as well I belive Baruk (maybe someone else) delivered their heads instead of allowing Rake to put them in there. If Rake truly cared about people being condemed to his sword he would have killed them with magic and not his sword.

We know Rake beat the 7th, but we don't know how long the fight lasted. We also don't know the rank of the seguleh he fought prior to fighting the seventh. We know Senu is a 11th level initiate, but there was no indication as to if Thurule was in the top 1000 as the only thing we know about Thurule is that his mask was less ornate than Senu's and he was ranked higher. Also we don't know what a 11th level initiate is in the hirarchy of seguleh society. Every statement is backed up by the passages in the books.

Now here is a good questions, is it the skill of the writer that allows people to read the same words differently?

I'm a few years too late for that discussion,but anyway... sacase, your whole argument rests upon the "Rake fought Draconus for 3 days". Now, if you don't find that quote and post it here all your trouble is for nothing :-) And you won't find that quote, because it does NOT exist. I don't know who first came up with it, but this is not anywhere in the books.

Now, Rake was exhausted and whatnot, but that comes out of Lady Envy and she has a history with Rake filled with resentment, therefore you can't take her words for 100% truth. Now, with the s days fantasy fight out of the question, Rake managed to get trough a lot of seguleh and reached the 7th in a few hours. I don't know how many if any of the other characters can manage that and survive, human, ascendant or a god.

Regarding the Rake/Dassem fight, everything is pretty clearly written and explained for me in TTH. Before the fight, Rake killed HOOD fro christ sake and then if that is not enough, once Hood is in, his army of the dead come in too with a lot of powerful beings in said army. The scene where Rake tries and fails to stand upright does an incredible job of describing the burden that Dragnipur becomes, how heavy it is. IF that is not enough of an example, you have the scene in the cave(which is before the fight) where Rake puts Dragnipur down for a bit and the rock starts to sweat and tremble! So, despite all of that, Rake manages to get up, collect himself and fight Dassem the whole time without Dassem being able to push him even a step back. Now, Dassem comes to the fight rested and even having some fun even on the way with karsa and he still cant push back Rake a step. And then you have the whole vengeance/ grief thing (which doesn't help Dassem too) and the Desseambre worshippers chanting on the side. So in the end Dassem has a lot of good things on his side whereas the timing of events is against Rake and still everything goes as Rake intended to. So I fail to see how Rake is not the best out of them... The only ones that come close to him as Brood says are Seguleh 1st, Dassem and brood himself.

That's it, case closed

[zdub97]

Onos, on 02 December 2008 - 06:52 PM, said:

This thread is response to how powerful Kallor is with the sword. At first just wanted to throw it in that thread, but it is different as i am listed who i think are the best swordsmen. Note: I am ordering them as best i can. Some are nearly impossible to tell since they havent fought someone who has fought someone else. (Example: Mok and Onos have only really fought each other, no one else of relevance)

1. Rake* (Contention that Dragnipur is a one kill sword, countered by its 'weight', specially after Hood enters)
2. Dassem (How much is Grief helping him... still a champion either way, but now really want to know how Grief helps him)
3. Mok (For all i know he could be higher. We need more evidence on Mok, but i view him as one of the best of a race that seems entirely devoted to fighting prowess. Also he is only 3rd, but he is mentioned as perhaps being ready to challenge the first, so until we see the first or even the 2nd in a fight)
4. Onos (I would argue alive he could take Mok, but have no proof. Also Mok used two swords vs Onos' one, so that tells me a lot. 1 vs. 1 swords.... Isnt his title first sword? hundreds of thousands of years before all the other upstarts?)
5. Silchas (Clearly better than Iron Bars and thus probably ahead of Skinner. Solar used the Trull as a benchmark to rank Silchas ahead of Icarium in skill)
6. Icarium (Ok i now admit he is pretty fast. He could be even higher... I have dropped him back down due to Trull comparision)
7. Skinner (didnt seem THAT great, but that was against Dasseem. He beat Greymane it seems. Also his armour makes things tricky. He certainly could be a few spots lower)
8. Greymane (didnt use the sword...whatever that means. Doesnt Brood speak highly of Greymane?)
9. Brys (i know some people think he is the shit... but the only evidence we had was him beating a still shitty Rhulad. He struck me as good... but not there with the rest. People seem adamant that he is better than i have placed him. Feeling info on him is lacking though he could slide up to 7th)
10. Karsa (He seems to have incredible speed... but think that is more his pocket warren. Also he was awed by Rake/Dasseem, so that should be a hint at his true skill. I might need to revisit the Karsa/Rhulad fight)
11. Trull* (not a swordsman... ok below Silchas, but how far does he drop? Fairly good argument made he was below Brys)
12. Kallor (he isnt the greatest but against lesser foes he is good. Would he have looked better if he knew he was fighting Dasseem? I have reread the Spinnock fight. Seems like Kallor is the better here. Spinnock over performed)
13. Spinnock (Think Spinnock does belong below Kallor)
14. Rell* (He doesnt come with a lot of evidence fighting other good swordsmen... hard to place him exactly. I have gained more respect for his abilities of late... but still dont know if i can up him much without relevant proof)
15. Iron Bars (Good, but below Skinner, below Silchas, has trouble with the 1000 Seguleh)
16. Blues (could be better than Iron Bars)
17. Shimmer (could be better than Iron Bars or Blues)
18. Nenanda (No evidence fighting names characters, but due to request i have added him to list. As he starts kicking ass he can move up)
19. Whiskeyjack (ok have added him...)
20. Gruntle

*Dead (as far as we can tell)

Am i missing any notables? I think i am intentionally excluding WJ. Not sure where to add him, but i think he is near the bottom or even at the bottom of this list.

Thoughts? Complaints? (i am sure there will be many <img src="http://forum.malazanempire.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> )

I would say Rake surpasses everyone in Malazan universe, with Dassem coming in at second, maybe seguleh first but we still havent seen him. Rake basically sets up Dassem to kill him with his own weapon.
I think it is safe to assume Dassem is by far one of the most deadly. People who are close to him say just how good he is, and how he single handedly killed all of those edur on drift avalli before grief.
I would actually rank Trull top five. Multiple highly skilled characters comment that trulls skill with the spear is astounding. He eaven beats Silchas in there duel doesnt he? And Brys definately deserves to be higher. First of all with that sword Rhulad was one of the most skilled edur, and the way that Brys effortlessly beat him, surgically severing his muscles, effectively paralyzing him without killing him, and Fear, who is also one of the more skilled swordsmen, says he has no doubt Brys could beat him and even trull was shocked at his skill.
Considering that each time Rhulad came back he was considerably more skilled, and karsa made it look easy to kill him, i would put him closer to top 5. Not saying he could beat dassem or Rake, but he would give them a run for there money.
I think Kallor is more deadly than people give him credit for. His ability against spinock is impressive and its not just lesser opponents that he is dangerous against, he has killed many powerful ones to (orfantal).
Spinock is also very good. He holds off kallor singlehandedly for an entire night, while never once trying to wound kallor, even though kallor admitted that he had several chances.
I would put several people over nemander. Fear sengar, Andarist, clip.
Over all a pretty good top twenty with just a few adjustments

[Andorion]

zdub97, on 13 August 2016 - 06:59 AM, said:

Onos, on 02 December 2008 - 06:52 PM, said:

This thread is response to how powerful Kallor is with the sword. At first just wanted to throw it in that thread, but it is different as i am listed who i think are the best swordsmen. Note: I am ordering them as best i can. Some are nearly impossible to tell since they havent fought someone who has fought someone else. (Example: Mok and Onos have only really fought each other, no one else of relevance)

1. Rake* (Contention that Dragnipur is a one kill sword, countered by its 'weight', specially after Hood enters)
2. Dassem (How much is Grief helping him... still a champion either way, but now really want to know how Grief helps him)
3. Mok (For all i know he could be higher. We need more evidence on Mok, but i view him as one of the best of a race that seems entirely devoted to fighting prowess. Also he is only 3rd, but he is mentioned as perhaps being ready to challenge the first, so until we see the first or even the 2nd in a fight)
4. Onos (I would argue alive he could take Mok, but have no proof. Also Mok used two swords vs Onos' one, so that tells me a lot. 1 vs. 1 swords.... Isnt his title first sword? hundreds of thousands of years before all the other upstarts?)
5. Silchas (Clearly better than Iron Bars and thus probably ahead of Skinner. Solar used the Trull as a benchmark to rank Silchas ahead of Icarium in skill)
6. Icarium (Ok i now admit he is pretty fast. He could be even higher... I have dropped him back down due to Trull comparision)
7. Skinner (didnt seem THAT great, but that was against Dasseem. He beat Greymane it seems. Also his armour makes things tricky. He certainly could be a few spots lower)
8. Greymane (didnt use the sword...whatever that means. Doesnt Brood speak highly of Greymane?)
9. Brys (i know some people think he is the shit... but the only evidence we had was him beating a still shitty Rhulad. He struck me as good... but not there with the rest. People seem adamant that he is better than i have placed him. Feeling info on him is lacking though he could slide up to 7th)
10. Karsa (He seems to have incredible speed... but think that is more his pocket warren. Also he was awed by Rake/Dasseem, so that should be a hint at his true skill. I might need to revisit the Karsa/Rhulad fight)
11. Trull* (not a swordsman... ok below Silchas, but how far does he drop? Fairly good argument made he was below Brys)
12. Kallor (he isnt the greatest but against lesser foes he is good. Would he have looked better if he knew he was fighting Dasseem? I have reread the Spinnock fight. Seems like Kallor is the better here. Spinnock over performed)
13. Spinnock (Think Spinnock does belong below Kallor)
14. Rell* (He doesnt come with a lot of evidence fighting other good swordsmen... hard to place him exactly. I have gained more respect for his abilities of late... but still dont know if i can up him much without relevant proof)
15. Iron Bars (Good, but below Skinner, below Silchas, has trouble with the 1000 Seguleh)
16. Blues (could be better than Iron Bars)
17. Shimmer (could be better than Iron Bars or Blues)
18. Nenanda (No evidence fighting names characters, but due to request i have added him to list. As he starts kicking ass he can move up)
19. Whiskeyjack (ok have added him...)
20. Gruntle

*Dead (as far as we can tell)

Am i missing any notables? I think i am intentionally excluding WJ. Not sure where to add him, but i think he is near the bottom or even at the bottom of this list.

Thoughts? Complaints? (i am sure there will be many <img src="http://forum.malazanempire.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> )

I would say Rake surpasses everyone in Malazan universe, with Dassem coming in at second, maybe seguleh first but we still havent seen him. Rake basically sets up Dassem to kill him with his own weapon.
I think it is safe to assume Dassem is by far one of the most deadly. People who are close to him say just how good he is, and how he single handedly killed all of those edur on drift avalli before grief.
I would actually rank Trull top five. Multiple highly skilled characters comment that trulls skill with the spear is astounding. He eaven beats Silchas in there duel doesnt he? And Brys definately deserves to be higher. First of all with that sword Rhulad was one of the most skilled edur, and the way that Brys effortlessly beat him, surgically severing his muscles, effectively paralyzing him without killing him, and Fear, who is also one of the more skilled swordsmen, says he has no doubt Brys could beat him and even trull was shocked at his skill.
Considering that each time Rhulad came back he was considerably more skilled, and karsa made it look easy to kill him, i would put him closer to top 5. Not saying he could beat dassem or Rake, but he would give them a run for there money.
I think Kallor is more deadly than people give him credit for. His ability against spinock is impressive and its not just lesser opponents that he is dangerous against, he has killed many powerful ones to (orfantal).
Spinock is also very good. He holds off kallor singlehandedly for an entire night, while never once trying to wound kallor, even though kallor admitted that he had several chances.
I would put several people over nemander. Fear sengar, Andarist, clip.
Over all a pretty good top twenty with just a few adjustments

But you have to remember that Rake visited Seguleh island and only advanced till 7th. He was forced to retreat by the intensity of the combat he faced.

Of course you can argue that he did not truly unleash himself.

I personally think that not many people could face Rake if he truly unleashed Dragnipur as he did in TtH, except Draconus, Dassem and Icarium

What do you think of Karsa?

[Emancipor Reese]

Dancer+, on 04 December 2008 - 09:32 AM, said:

James Hetfield, on Dec 4 2008, 04:13 AM, said:

The only thing I know is that Rake is/was the best. We all know he could have killed Dassem, by sword or warren, but threw the fight to enter Dragnipur. That is not up for discussion, it is fact. He beat an Elder God, dozens of Segulah, and countless thousands of others(evidence in dragnipur). Who can come even close except maybe Icarium or the same Elder God who thought him an upstart? Segulah, no chance. Avowed, no way. Being alive for half a million years and defeating every person that has it in for you is insane! Rake obviously does not turn away from most fights and he likes to stick his nose into others' buiness.

If it would have taken a warren to beat Dassem then Rake is not the best swordsmen. I'm slightly in the minority who think Dassem is greater than Rake at swordplay. Icarium even alludes to the opinion that Dassem was perhaps more than his equal (we all know this is in terms of swordsmenship as Dassem has few other offensive skills).

Rake is almost certainly better than Dassem, and Icarium, overall. He's just too smart and all arounded to fail - as you point out his track record against Elder Gods and other unspeakables is unassailable (plus Erikson loves him in his own way.) None of this changes my opinion on swordplay, from what I've seen I choose to believe that Dassem and Icarium are no.1 and no.2 in no particular order.

In they're fight in Darujistan Rake used Dassems strike as a way of killing himself with Dragnipur!!(is what I took out of that scene) by deflecting he's blade off of Grief and into he's own head. Thought that was why Dassem was so upset afterwards cos he knew that's what Rake did,which would mean all during they're fight Rake was just waiting for the perfect time to do so. which in my eyes would make him Superior just as Tool used the Flat of he's blade when facing the Seguleth.