[tiam]

As much as these threads circle...

Kallor defeated the best Andii soldier. But Spinnock is simply the best Andii soldier left. The Kallor fight is not designed to show case Kallor's talent its designed to show how Rakes faith in Spinnock allowed him to slow down an 'ascendent' in the same way that Rake faith in Endest allowed him to hold Moon Spawn underwater.

Best swordsmen will always centre around Dassem or Rake. Dassem killed Rake leaving Dassem the best. From what weve seen no one can rival him other than Draconus/Seguleh First but even that seems unlikely

[Aptorian]

 tiam, on 04 January 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

Best swordsmen will always centre around Dassem or Rake. Dassem killed Rake leaving Dassem the best. From what weve seen no one can rival him other than Draconus/Seguleh First but even that seems unlikely

Until a random Jaghut/FA/Squirrel Soletaken steps out of the woodwork, revealed to be the best Sword fighter of his dimension/Continent/Oak tree and kills Dassem when he loses his footing on a spear butt.

[tiam]

Your being ridiculous Apt. That would never happen.

I imagine the duel to be around the Spar of Andii between Dassem and Sister Orfantal (revealed to be an EG) while the 7th army burns at Yghatan in the back ground.

[Glave]

I'd love to see Trull vs. Anomander Rake. Assuming Anomander isn't using Dragnipur or a weapons that with one cut could potentially defeat it's opponent.

Trull singlehandedly held off Icarium while he was "raging".

[Aptorian]

 Glave, on 11 March 2011 - 05:12 PM, said:

Trull singlehandedly held off Icarium while he was "raging".

While he was beginning to rage. At full rage mode Drift Avalii would have been a dead island.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

 Clockwork Apt, on 11 March 2011 - 06:18 PM, said:

 Glave, on 11 March 2011 - 05:12 PM, said:

Trull singlehandedly held off Icarium while he was "raging".

While he was beginning to rage. At full rage mode Drift Avalii would have been a dead island.

Erm, what has Drift Avalii to do with that fight? The First Throne is on Quon Tali.

[Aptorian]

Hmm. Right. Sorry. For a moment there I got the two sites mixed up. Anyway the point is, at full rage mode, that sorcery stuff Iccy was generating would have off'd Trull.

[Jingospice]

Its true Dassem killed Rake, but wasn't it Rake's plan all along to die, so that he could enter Dragnipur fight off chaos and then reunite Mother Dark with the Andii? I think Dassem is a close second to Anomander Rake. Dont forget that Rake had just killed Hood before fighting Dassem and he had the entire weight of Hood's warren in his sword while he was fighting.

 tiam, on 04 January 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

As much as these threads circle...

Kallor defeated the best Andii soldier. But Spinnock is simply the best Andii soldier left. The Kallor fight is not designed to show case Kallor's talent its designed to show how Rakes faith in Spinnock allowed him to slow down an 'ascendent' in the same way that Rake faith in Endest allowed him to hold Moon Spawn underwater.

Best swordsmen will always centre around Dassem or Rake. Dassem killed Rake leaving Dassem the best. From what weve seen no one can rival him other than Draconus/Seguleh First but even that seems unlikely

[Griff Edur]

Yea I would have to agree with Jingospice. I might be wrong but the onlookers to that battle were saying they could see the killing blow but it was all wrong, maybe meaning Daasem should of died but somehow the sword ended up in the back of Rake's head.
However, my ability to recall events correctly in this series are generally poor and always muddled. But thats what I took from it, suggesting Rake would be top.
Though doesn't Rake hold rank #3 in the Seguleh? Does that mean he is not as good as the First, or just aint fought him/her yet?

By the was who is the First?

p.s I haven't read most of the 36 pages in this thread so you may have already spoken of this many times already. If so, sorry.

[Sinisdar Toste]

 Griff Edur, on 16 March 2011 - 12:11 AM, said:

Yea I would have to agree with Jingospice. I might be wrong but the onlookers to that battle were saying they could see the killing blow but it was all wrong, maybe meaning Daasem should of died but somehow the sword ended up in the back of Rake's head.
However, my ability to recall events correctly in this series are generally poor and always muddled. But thats what I took from it, suggesting Rake would be top.
Though doesn't Rake hold rank #3 in the Seguleh? Does that mean he is not as good as the First, or just aint fought him/her yet?

By the was who is the First?

p.s I haven't read most of the 36 pages in this thread so you may have already spoken of this many times already. If so, sorry.

rake only made it up to #7 before he had to take a breather.

as for the first, we've never met him, and i assume he's just a regular segulah (who are not at all regular)

[Hood's Herald]

Imo Whitemask/the First is the best swordsman in the series even though he hasn't been seen yet.

[Black Company]

This is way back but just because Onos uses one sword compared to Mok's two swords doesn't mean Mok has an advantage. It's the sword style he chose to use. I'm sure if you gave Onos, Dassem, Rake a choice of using one or two swords, they'd stick with one. Also, Dassem was the First Sword of the Empire, revered for his skill and prowess as a swordsman way before he came upon Vengeance/Grief. I'm not sure there's enough evidence to put Draconus or Ossric in any rankings because frankly, we haven't had a single passage that alludes to them swordfighting. The only times we have heard of them in battle is against Rake, and those could have been sorcerous battles. Kallor is a great swordsman, but doesn't break into the top 5 or probably even top 10. As someone earlier stated, he hasn't been defeated but he also hasn't gone up against the truly greats (Dassem, Rake, Seguleh 1st? [one of the Seguleh's is alluded to]). And he was about to get kilt by Whiskeyjack, though turns out he was no slump with the blade either.

I think it's safe to say:

1. Dassem
2. Rake (really is debatable with the weight of Dragnipur, all that jazz. But Dassem won so I'll put him on top)
3. Seguleh 1st (even though like Draconus or Osserc we haven't seen him fight, by virtue of he's the top ranking Seguleh, a society based around martial prowess and strict ranking, I'll put him here.)
4. Mok (It's still unclear whether the dead Seguleh 2nd who works for Hood has held onto his rank. Anyway, Mok may be interchangeable with #3)
5. Onos T'oolan

6. Karsa (Not sure Karsa belongs this high, but he's about as BADASS as they come, and no slouch with the blade. The fact that he was almost in fear of Rake and Dassem's fight says something about where he is. Though, when your back's against the wall, things shine through; ie Trull.

The reason I can't put Icarium up here is that the reason he's so dangerous isn't because of his swordplay, it's because in his rage he becomes a portal unto Chaos. He didn't destroy all those cities by bashing and cutting his way through them; it was his literally destructive rage. That being said, without that Chaos-aspected rage, it seems that he'd be up there, but i'm going to leave him out for now.

I'd like to put Brys and Gruntle here, but there isn't enough context with those two. Fear and Trull were just about on par in skill level, and Trull was able to hold off Silchas and Icarium in a battered state. Fear had that passage where he was faintly in awe of Brys's skill so I think the argument could be made that Brys is somewhere in the top5-A group, but *shrug. Gruntle never came into contact with any of the top swordsman; he came off as more of a melee fighter but I think people would be surprised at how good he'd be.

[Aptorian]

My suspicion is that Mok surpasses the First. He was sent into the Panion Domin, not out of necessity, but for political reasons. The First obviously suspected that if they faced each other he/she would not win.

[geniusloci]

Brys was described in a manner that implies he is the single best swordsman ever mentioned in the book. It took him just a blink of an eye not to kill, but completely disable Rhulad.

On the other hand, Hood himself came for Brukhalian upon his death. I loved that scene.

And... Karsa Orlong, although it's his unbreakable will that makes him the demigod he is. He takes wounds when he fights, but we know him since he was bald young teblor... not that good with his sword. Still, i always keep in mind the fact that everyone who survived meeting him was alive just because Karsa didn't want to kill him. All but Dassem.

[Aptorian]

 geniusloci, on 28 June 2011 - 10:53 AM, said:

Brys was described in a manner that implies he is the single best swordsman ever mentioned in the book. It took him just a blink of an eye not to kill, but completely disable Rhulad.

People keep bringing this up and it doesn't ring true.

What Brys demonstrated was incredible finesse with a blade tip. Being knowledgeable about physiology and light of touch does not the best swordsman make. I could argue that any Seguleh could do what he did. The Seguleh Iron Bars faces in Return of the Crimson Guard showed the same talent.

The difference was that the Seguleh was facing a swordsman on his guard and Brys simply performed surgery on a helpless Edur.

All the finesse in the world wont help you if you're facing a swordsman that you can't hit. Also it was not a something that happened in a blink of eye, that would be super human speed. Brys took his time cutting those tendons.

It would have been interesting to see Brys vs Trull or Temper.

This post has been edited by Pennyapt: 28 June 2011 - 11:33 AM

[geniusloci]

Point taken.

 tiam, on 04 January 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

Best swordsmen will always centre around Dassem or Rake. Dassem killed Rake leaving Dassem the best. From what weve seen no one can rival him other than Draconus/Seguleh First but even that seems unlikely

Rake falls on purpose, so no, Dassem didn't won it.

I also recall that there was description of how all Imass stood in awe watching Onos T'oolan fight.

Sorry, I know Dassem was named best by winning over rake, who was repeatedly pointed as ..invincible, yet he never struck me as simply the best, while Karsa, Onos, even Rake and most Seguleh were all described as some gods of swordsmanship (in Karsa's case it is more a matter of willingness and determination though, his fights were not always a dance that leaves him unhurt).

[Bauchelain the Evil]

 geniusloci, on 29 June 2011 - 06:52 AM, said:

Point taken.

 tiam, on 04 January 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

Best swordsmen will always centre around Dassem or Rake. Dassem killed Rake leaving Dassem the best. From what weve seen no one can rival him other than Draconus/Seguleh First but even that seems unlikely

Rake falls on purpose, so no, Dassem didn't won it.

I also recall that there was description of how all Imass stood in awe watching Onos T'oolan fight.

Sorry, I know Dassem was named best by winning over rake, who was repeatedly pointed as ..invincible, yet he never struck me as simply the best, while Karsa, Onos, even Rake and most Seguleh were all described as some gods of swordsmanship (in Karsa's case it is more a matter of willingness and determination though, his fights were not always a dance that leaves him unhurt).

Well seeing how Karsa stood in awe while he watched Dassem and Rake fight and said that only a fool would think of messing up with them,he clearly is below both rake and Dassem.

Also,while I agree that that duel cannot tell us who was the best between Rake and Dassem, throughout the series Dassem was portrayed as one of the greatest swordsman ever and I don't think it's a stretch to say he was second only to Rake.

[Bonecaster]

Blues freakin' rocks! This is from Stonewielder. Hope it's not a problem putting it here. Not much of a spoiler, in any case.

Quote

The man levelled the spear. 'Why? You're going to die anyway.' And he thrust. Blues blocked the spear with his crossed sticks and lashed out, kicking the man. He grunted, recovering instantly, to drive Blues back with a series of short thrusts. Shell was startled: Blues was their mercenary company's weapon-master; no one ould stand before him. Certainly, there were those who could outlast him or overbear him, such as Bars or Lazar, or Skinner, for that matter, but in technique and ability with any weapon the man was peerless among them.

[LordofTheFallen]

So your proof that Blues is an example of him loosing a fight? really?

since we're on the topic of SW, Imagin if Manask and Karsa fought.

"I shall attempt to sneak up and assassinate him!" CLOMP-CLOMP- CLOMP-CLOMP
-Karsa's sword through the chest."
"Ah, I have dissarmed you my foe."
-Karsa dropping the weapon and throwing punches.
"You are but tireing yourself out my friend."

[Bonecaster]

He didn't lose the fight. In what I quoted, he was driven back an unspecified distance. Which was a surprise to Shell, because she knows how skilled Blues is. The battle continues:

Quote

They duelled in this manner for a time, neither able to penetrate the other's guard. Shell watched, her amazement growing moment by moment. Who were these Stormguard? Obviously, she saw now, their reputation was not overblown.

Then, the Stormguard blasts Blues with some magic. Blues responds with some of his own, and the Stormguard is thrown out the window.

Also, I didn't say Blues is the best swordsman. I said he freakin' rocks. He does, and would even if he had lost that particular fight. His battle with Lorn was enough for me to have that opinion of him.

And now I await more of your attitude.