[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Just finished the book. I enjoyed it but it seemed like a big change from the first trilogy. The gods apparently coming into play kind of surprised me. Yatwer appears to be giving power to her followers and setting herself against Kellhus, which makes sense seeing as how he is claiming to be god himself. Considering they didn't do anything at all proactive in the first trilogy (and seemed to maybe not be real) it totally changes the scope and landscape of the series.

Oh, and I think my new favorite BAMF line from a book is the Captain of the Skin-Eaters in Cil-Aujas.

Spoiler

"This isn't Hell"
"How do you know?"
"Because, I would remember."

But with everything going on, the way he is able to keep his cool and act like he'd seen it all before was awesome.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

You know I'm not that surprised with the Gods being actually real although I know some are. After all from the trilogy we know that demons and the Outside exist and that the Gods come from the Outside. What I believe is not true is actually the Inrithi idea( all gods aspect of one God)

[Roland_85]

Bakker announced that The White-Luck Warrior is now in press!

[Yellow]

Getting a bit worried for Bakker at the moment. He posted on his blog quite a bit recently about how not-exactly-brimming-with-profit his books have been (especially his non-fantasy ones)... and recently Amazon UK stopped advertising/selling the hardback version of White Luck Warrior. Amazon US still have it listed, but with the crappy temporary cover:



... which makes me think they'll get round to pulling that soon.

I hope this doesn't mean Bakker's publishers are worried about the series. Apart from fearing for the series, I have all the PoN books in hardcover and they've been really beautiful editions with a recurring theme, so I don't want to have to have crappy paperbacks

Just having a read through this old thread, some interesting discussion on here!

Morgoth, on 20 May 2009 - 08:50 PM, said:

I actually interpreted his teleportation thing as the first sign that he's begining to make mistakes, tiny though they may be at this time. If he had planned things perfectly, it would never have been necessary for him to exhaust himself as he did by teleporting back. Not to mention the attack on that northern city, which seemed somewhat poorly executed. If you read the scene where he comes for Serwel, Kelhus is described to have lines of salt on his face which shows he had more than one almost lethal encounter with the tears of god.

Can't believe I didn't respond to this before, but anyway. I think the "exhaustion" was fake. When has Kellhus ever shown his true self to anyone? Ok, when he was on the tree, and a few times with Cnaiur and Mo... but never with Esmi, as far as I remember. If he seemed exhausted, it was to manipulate Esmi and not something real.

amphibian, on 10 June 2009 - 08:55 PM, said:

My theories:

...

Cleric is the greatest of all Non-Men become Erratic (the king who led the Five Mansions against the No-God). The "cousin" line clinched it for me.

I can't decide who Cleric is at all. If you're thinking of Cujara Cinmoi (or however you spell it), then I'm not so sure. The glossary in TTT says that he died a long time ago, if I remember right, possibly in the Cuno-Inchoroi wars. Of course, I've said before how I think the glossary stuff is not necessarily trustworthy so who the fuck knows

[amphibian]

Yellow, on 11 November 2010 - 07:05 PM, said:

I can't decide who Cleric is at all. If you're thinking of Cujara Cinmoi (or however you spell it), then I'm not so sure. The glossary in TTT says that he died a long time ago, if I remember right, possibly in the Cuno-Inchoroi wars. Of course, I've said before how I think the glossary stuff is not necessarily trustworthy so who the fuck knows

Cujara is the name. I couldn't help but thinking that the cousin recognition scene really only works if Cleric is a king and what better king to have as a broken soul wandering around than the greatest of all Non-Men?

I bought the Judging Eye in hardback and the others in paperback (because I got the first three all at once and JE when it first came out). White Luck Warrior will also be a hardback purchase for me. We're still several months off from the release of a lesser SF luminary's book though. Plenty of time for more promotion and the swapping of the actual cover in on Amazon etc.

Bakker's blog makes me never want to meet the guy. Ugh.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 11 November 2010 - 07:58 PM

[Yellow]

Yeah, agreed on that last point There's a video interview on youtube where he comes across as alright, but I get the feeling he's reining himself in.

I really hope they bring back the hardcover in the UK, but I worry.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Yellow, on 11 November 2010 - 07:05 PM, said:

Morgoth, on 20 May 2009 - 08:50 PM, said:

I actually interpreted his teleportation thing as the first sign that he's begining to make mistakes, tiny though they may be at this time. If he had planned things perfectly, it would never have been necessary for him to exhaust himself as he did by teleporting back. Not to mention the attack on that northern city, which seemed somewhat poorly executed. If you read the scene where he comes for Serwel, Kelhus is described to have lines of salt on his face which shows he had more than one almost lethal encounter with the tears of god.

Can't believe I didn't respond to this before, but anyway. I think the "exhaustion" was fake. When has Kellhus ever shown his true self to anyone? Ok, when he was on the tree, and a few times with Cnaiur and Mo... but never with Esmi, as far as I remember. If he seemed exhausted, it was to manipulate Esmi and not something real.

amphibian, on 10 June 2009 - 08:55 PM, said:

My theories:

...

Cleric is the greatest of all Non-Men become Erratic (the king who led the Five Mansions against the No-God). The "cousin" line clinched it for me.

I can't decide who Cleric is at all. If you're thinking of Cujara Cinmoi (or however you spell it), then I'm not so sure. The glossary in TTT says that he died a long time ago, if I remember right, possibly in the Cuno-Inchoroi wars. Of course, I've said before how I think the glossary stuff is not necessarily trustworthy so who the fuck knows

Yeah apparently a Nonman traitor killed him in the second battle of the Cuno-Inchoroi war( the one they fought after all Nonmen women died).

As for the trustiness of the glossary, I'd say that the one at the end of TTT is trustworthy. It's on the "What happened before" part that i have my doubts

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 12 November 2010 - 04:33 PM

[pat5150]

I should start reading TWLW this weekend. . .

Patrick

[SpectreofEschaton]

pat5150, on 19 November 2010 - 08:41 PM, said:

I should start reading TWLW this weekend. . .

Patrick

If I wasn't planning to do a complete reread of the TBMBotF after finishing my current reread of The Second Apocalypse (which should me over until TWLW (and TCG) come out)... I would hate you right now.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Oh don't worry Spectre, I'm sure I can hate Pat for both of us

[Yellow]

Had a thought about what Kellhus might actually want in his war with the Consult.

Someone on another site talked about the cycle of souls and why humans are more important to the nature of the Outside than Nonmen and it ties in with that. To paraphrase that other guy, when people die, they take their beliefs with them to the Outside, and this contributes to its nature (or "updates" it) each time. So, the more people who die who believe that sorcerers are damned, the more real that damnation becomes. Humans die a lot more frequently than Nonmen (I'm talking pre-womb plague Nonmen), so their beliefs shape the Outside much more. The ones who are currently not damned then get reborn, the currently damned ones are, well, damned. He then went on to say how the womb-plague helped the Inchoroi with their goals by essentially stopping the cycle of souls (i.e. no one dies, no one is reborn).

Assuming for a minute that the above is true...

Kellhus has spent the last twenty years in an attempt to rewrite the law so that sorcerers are not damned in the Three Seas' belief system. How much he has succeeded by TJE I don't know, but I'm willing to bet there haven't been enough people dying in twenty years to influence the Outside so much that it's become truth. So, it's going to take longer than twenty years, but Kellhus doesn't have that long until he dies (and is damned).

That is, unless he learns how to extend his life, or make himself immortal. The only way to do that is to learn the Tekne from the Consult. He could do a deal with them (but he knows how that Inchie immortality deal worked out for the Nonmen), or he could defeat the Consult and take that knowledge for himself. Hence, his Great Ordeal.

Just a thought, anyway. The alternative is that Kellhus actually cares about the world enough to prevent the apocalypse. That doesn't sit quite right with me.

[SpectreofEschaton]

If that's true... could he not have actually gathered the Great Ordeal as a massive sacrifice of 390,000 souls to try and tilt the balance? After all, it's not like we've seen much in the way of organization or even threat from the Consult. What if Kellhus has marshaled them just to betray them all?

I

[Yellow]

Possibly, aye. How many people do you reckon die in the Three Seas over a century (or, I guess, in 11th century Europe). I'm just wondering how many it would take to change the damnation thing.

I definitely wouldn't put it past Kellhus to sacrifice that many people. I just don't understand why

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

One question that bothered me about this book, or at least that I wasn't sure about. Since there is now a school for women wizards, started by Kellhus' daughter, and presumably taught by him. Does that mean they have the gnosis? I read the book awhile back so I can't quite remember, but I thought that the Mandate school was still the only one with the gnosis in this book...or at least it seemed implied.

[SpectreofEschaton]

Yellow, on 27 November 2010 - 07:48 PM, said:

I definitely wouldn't put it past Kellhus to sacrifice that many people. I just don't understand why

Really? Because, your theory that I responded to kind of made that whole idea seem plausible to me.

If Kellhus doesn't want to be damned, and only dead souls can do the whole perception-reality think in Earwa/Outside, then I could definitely see Kellhus using the whole Ordeal as one massive sacrifice, now that's he's brain-washed them all into believing exactly what he wants them to believe.

And... we'd probably need some kind of population figures to get a rough idea of how many deaths would occur in the twenty-year period of Kellhus' reign.

Maybe someone with some medieval history mojo can do some kind of reverse calculation to figure out what the population of an empire would have to be to field 400K men?

[Yellow]

Oh, it's definitely plausible... but I bet the real reason would be something I can't even think of. Sounds like it might be right, though, but then who knows how the Bakkerverse really works. I can't wait for the third book in AE, I'm sure there will be some serious up-ending of everything I thought I knew

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 27 November 2010 - 08:25 PM, said:

One question that bothered me about this book, or at least that I wasn't sure about. Since there is now a school for women wizards, started by Kellhus' daughter, and presumably taught by him. Does that mean they have the gnosis? I read the book awhile back so I can't quite remember, but I thought that the Mandate school was still the only one with the gnosis in this book...or at least it seemed implied.

I don't believe any of the other schools have the Gnosis, but I might be wrong. The only reason I can think of that the Gnosis wasn't given away is if Kellhus did a deal with the Mandate along those lines.

Otherwise, if you're going up against the Consult, you would damn well want everyone using the best weapons they can get their hands on. Dunno, maybe someone else can shed some light on that.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

When one of the witches infiltrated the Cult of Yatwer at one point her wards were described as "ethereal ramparts" or some such which seems to be definitely Anagogic magic. And yeah I'm sure Kellhus made a pact with the Mandate: the Gnosis is kept safe and in turn they fight for him.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Does it seem odd that Kellhus needed to make a deal with anyone? He couldn't just manipulate them into whatever he wanted? If he's going to this massive war I would think he'd want his magic-wielders all as strong as possible.

[Jorram]

amphibian, on 17 June 2009 - 10:56 PM, said:

<!--quoteo(post=623029:date=Jun 17 2009, 05:49 PM:name=Darkwatch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Darkwatch @ Jun 17 2009, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=623029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think the Non-Men are superior humans since they predate us by a long shot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I'm saying is that humans have Non-Men traits and the Anasurimbor have been breeding for those traits. However, if that breeding is purposeful, then their disregard for sorcery is truly odd in that hypothetical context. If it is unknowingly, then it's still strange, but not as strange as discarding a potentially vast source of power, when their mission presumably is to preserve Celmomas's line and save the world from the Inchoroi.

Perhaps they truly wanted to hide until the time came and then power up with magic in a generation or two.

I'm afraid the Dunyain totally dont give a damn about the Anasurimbor line. That the Anasurimbor bastard they found in Ishual has proven to be their most successful line of breeding is maybe due to nonman blood, or coincidence, or genetics, or whatnot, but they certainly don't make special effort at preserving the Anasurimbor blood. The Dunyain want to ERASE history. They wanted to not care about ANY circumstance they came from. Thats why they disregarded magic. Power is not their goal - it is the mind absolute, free of any circumstance. They don't breed to save the world or to achieve martial prowess. They breed to achieve absolute control over themselves. At this point they dont even know or know extremely little about magic mojos, about the Consult, about the humanity at all. They are monks in the truest sense of the word.

Kellhus' motivation has nothing to do with the Dunyain.
Though I wonder if it crossed his mind to try and recruit them if he truly wanted to save the world. Maybe he thinks he's doing good enough without them though.

I should finally start commenting on those books, they are way too awesome

[Cause]

I seem to remeber thinking that he had distributed the gnosis to the other schools?