[Iconik]

Do not get me wrong. This isn't a gripe. SE's T'lan Imass are some of the most intriguing and shockingly original races in fantasy. There's just so much that's amazing about them. But, that said...the SOBs are incredibly overpowered. Incredibly difficult to "kill". Organized. Mostly singular in their motivations and the devastation they seem to always seem to inflict. I wonder what's stopping them from turning on everyone and just taking everything over. They would make short work of it. If the Malazans can get away with it...think on what an Imass could do. Now, I understand that there are those tribes that are lost and Imass that are unbound but, that would just add another element to the T'lan Imass' rule. Does their singular vision to get rid of the Jaghut keep them from getting rid of everyone else?

[Lisheo]

The Ascendants and Gods could take em out if they got too uppity, I think. I reckon Rake could destroy em all. As could the Segulah, or say the Forkrul Assail. Theyre kept in line by a lot. But also they were made who they are by domination and tyranny, and I don't think you ever become what you hate voluntarily.

[Aptorian]

Iconik, on Oct 18 2008, 11:59 PM, said:

I wonder what's stopping them from turning on everyone and just taking everything over. They would make short work of it. If the Malazans can get away with it...think on what an Imass could do. Now, I understand that there are those tribes that are lost and Imass that are unbound but, that would just add another element to the T'lan Imass' rule. Does their singular vision to get rid of the Jaghut keep them from getting rid of everyone else?

The Imass were an honorable people, they wouldn't just conquer a nation just to rule over another people. When the T'lan Imass act, they do it for what they believe is the good of all beings. The common good is most often the complete annihalation of the people in question, but they get the job done.

The T'lan Imass despise tyranny and the medling of gods. They sacrificed their own civilization and their immortal souls so that they might wipe out the Jaghut. That's is their only goal, their only wish. When that is done their only peace will be oblivion. What is a mortal empire to them?

Lisheo, on Oct 19 2008, 12:04 AM, said:

The Ascendants and Gods could take em out if they got too uppity, I think. I reckon Rake could destroy em all. As could the Segulah, or say the Forkrul Assail. Theyre kept in line by a lot. But also they were made who they are by domination and tyranny, and I don't think you ever become what you hate voluntarily.

We've never seen what happens if a god is pursued on it's own turf, but I think it's safe to say that no god or ascendant on Wu, perhaps with the exception of the Elder Gods, who could stand against the T'lan Imass. It doesn't matter that Rake is a supreme swordsman and he can turn into a dragon. If a thousand T'lan Imass rise out of the ground and start hurling magically imbued stone spears at him and rush him all at once... he's going to die. I doubt Dragnipur would even work on them, anymore than a common sword would.

Rake couldn't even escape into Kurald Galain because they would simply march in after him.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 18 October 2008 - 10:15 PM

[Grief]

Im pretty sure they're not immune to dragnipur.

Spoiler, cant remember where from, so its just in case.

Spoiler

Im not sure this is a spoiler cause I cant remember where its from, but we know that sorcery can take out that T'lan Imass.

TTH spoiler as proof: DONT READ if you haven't read TTH, as its one of the better bits in the book. You dont want to ruin it.

Spoiler

Kallor: You pwned a bunch of imass and a bonecaster.
Gothos: I pwned them.
This was post Raests chaining, which was, since the ritual was what had organised the Imass, post-ritual. I think. If gothos/raest can do it, im pretty sure Rake/K'rul would have just as little problem.

Another important argument:

The vow is what keeps them immortal. The vow is to wipe up the jaghut, stopping for nothing to do so, so as to eliminate tyrants. In fact, Tool? says that its there sacrifice for other races.
If they ignore this to go empire building, and start wiping out other races, they've pretty juch broken their vow.
These vows are pretty damn strong.
If they willfully break it, the consequences could be large.
It is the vow that keeps them "alive". If they break it, who's to say they wouldnt just, crumble.

[Iconik]

I don't know. They do have an honor system and are usually "honorable"...but at the same time they can be very judgemental. They fight not for the well being of all beings but for themselves. I point you to their obsessive endeavor to perform genocide on the Jaghut. Perhaps I missed something but it seems to me that the Imass went from a singular will to kill Tyrants to just deciding that they didn't like the entire race at all. Genocide is genocide.

I do not doubt that ascendants or God's wouldn't try to stop the Imass but I really don't think it'd be easy. Remember Quick Ben saying "Don't mess with mortals"? Imagine God's messing with Imass. I don't think it'd be a short venture. The Imass would have plenty of allies whether they accept them willingly or not.

Btw. I think they only gave up their own civilization to become immortal because they knew that their blood would most definitely live on in other races. You can't truly get rid of Imass blood. It's everywhere.

Quick edit for something Grief said: Tool is miles and miles above all other Imass in ANY regard. Talk about honor!

This post has been edited by Iconik: 18 October 2008 - 10:31 PM

[Lisheo]

I think if the cards were on the table and the T'lan were poised to attack the Gods, K'rul could probably say, right, no more Tellan warren for you... Effectively killing them.

[Iconik]

Doing that would make them ineffective against the Tyrants, though. Would K'rul sacrifice that?

That brings up another question...why doesn't some damn God pick up the tab on the Tyrants and expediate the process?

[Grief]

Ah, but could he.
Many beings(Rake, MD, Osserc, probably gothos)

Spoiler

like the dragons, it is in THEIR blood, as ewll as K'ruls. Thus, they can use it.

The Imass couldnt take on the gods. Not without a LOT of support. If beings like Rake, the dragons, etc sided with the gods, the Imass would be stuffed.

Spoiler

Even if K'rul couldn't deny tellan to them, once him, and the dragons supporting it, were gone, the Imass would be stuffed.

[Aptorian]

Grief, on Oct 19 2008, 12:21 AM, said:

Im pretty sure they're not immune to dragnipur.

Oh, they'll crumble if Rake cleaves a T'lan Imass in half, I just ment I don't think they'd get sucked into Dragnipiur if he knicks them with the sword. They have no soul for the sword to chain.

Grief, on Oct 19 2008, 12:21 AM, said:

Another important argument:

The vow is what keeps them immortal. The vow is to wipe up the jaghut, stopping for nothing to do so, so as to eliminate tyrants. In fact, Tool? says that its there sacrifice for other races.
If they ignore this to go empire building, and start wiping out other races, they've pretty juch broken their vow.
These vows are pretty damn strong.
If they willfully break it, the consequences could be large.
It is the vow that keeps them "alive". If they break it, who's to say they wouldnt just, crumble.

The T'lan Imass are not the Crimson Guard. They didn't make a vow, they under went a ritual. As we've seen it's possible for the TA to go renegade. It's only if they are sufficiently damaged that the they're severed from the power. And even then they stay immortal and soulless.

Grief, on Oct 19 2008, 12:42 AM, said:

Ah, but could he.
Many beings(Rake, MD, Osserc, probably gothos)

Spoiler

like the dragons, it is in THEIR blood, as ewll as K'ruls. Thus, they can use it.

The Imass couldnt take on the gods. Not without a LOT of support. If beings like Rake, the dragons, etc sided with the gods, the Imass would be stuffed.

Spoiler

Even if K'rul couldn't deny tellan to them, once him, and the dragons supporting it, were gone, the Imass would be stuffed.

See, my above point wasn't about the T'lan Imass intending to wipe out the entire pantheon, merely that they can and have killed gods. They are magically resistant, able to invade any warren, extremely strong and durable, equipped with an army of powerfull magic users, etc.

Hood was scared when the TA threatened to come in after Gethol in MoI, they destroyed the guardian of the Liosan, etc. They don't care about the gods borders or the consequences of their actions. Merely that their idea of justice is served.

The big question is if they are also able to kill Elder Gods. Mael has demonstrated that he's actually able to simply teleport a thousand people across a continent. Come to think of it, ST has demonstrated the same ability. Can the EGs just will the TAs out fo existance? Perhaps? But then again, the TA are magically resistant. Maybe nothing works on them.

[Lisheo]

I'm willing to bet that if Mael wanted he could just open a massive gate to Daeneth Rusen and let pressure crush the Imass to nothing.

[chill]

Based on the arguments "hard to kill and strong" it is possible to make a list of "overpowered" beings.
As far as I know, this list includes: T'lan Imass, Forkrul Assail, Teblor, Jaghut, Avowed, K'chain Che'malle and Nah'ruk... almost all non-human races.
Come to think of it, these people are probably the standard level of toughness, and humans are, erm... underpowered.

[Iconik]

Yes, but SE's humans are VERY cunning and resourceful.

[Grief]

They are not singular in that though are they?
A lot of the other races have that advantage as well.

[Osric]

There's just a shitload of humans, theyre the dominant species in Malaz. It might take what, 5 guys in a horse to take down a kchain chemelle but we got a lot more guys on horses then they got erm, bladearm guys.

We're the zerg of malaz. If that makes sense to anybody.
zerg rush kekeke

[kaf09]

Just regarding the extent of the power of the T'lan Imass; in House of Chains (I think, certainly it was no later a novel than The Bonehunters) it is explicitly stated that in any encounter with the Forkr'ul Assail (and the Unbound had one encounter), the Assail would routinely beat them.

Of course we don't know where the FA went.

[Aptorian]

Well, naturally the FA would beat them. The FA are the single most deadly thing I can remember the reader encountering in the books. They're magically resistant, they've got more dexterity and speed than Rodeo running from a skunk, their bodies have ironlike bones and super regeneration.

Smalll TTH spoiler

Spoiler

In the battle Kallor recalls in TTH it was said that for every dead FA lying on the ground a hundred dead lay surrounding it.

The battle you're mentioning though sounds like one at the Laederon Plateau. Where ten thousand T'lan Imass were destroyed and their bodies were used to make a staircase. We can't be sure what happened at this place. Maybe Calm killed all those T'lan Imass alone, more likely Icarium di it.

[Excellence]

Okay, some misconceptions all over. Please, allow me . . .

The Tiste Liosan "god" in House of Chains that Olar Shayn and the other Imass slew at the cost of her life was just a warren guardian. L'oric's familiar, actually. Most likely some sort of pet companion, but I'll concede we never saw the bloke so who knew how stgrong it was.

The Imass do have souls; in Memories of Ice they thought obliteration was expecting them after death. No afterlife. Now, thanks to Itkovian and the warren that was taken from Silverfox, they have a place waiting for them. Their memories of past lives lived millennia ago created it, and for their pet wolves.

They do have souls, just not free will ones.

And speaking of which, their Ritual was no joke. They have no free will. They made themselves compelled to seek and destroy Jaghut. It's a full compunction they can't control now. Unless, of course, they are so physically damaged that their Tellan sorcery holding them together softens . . . and they know free will like Onrack now.

As for prowess . . . true, their stone swords are like lightsabers, but they're not invincible. Taming the wild soletaken and d'vers that everyone become when the First Empire stuffed up their ritual took a heavy cost. You saw the valley of dead Imass Karsa found in House of Chains against the Assail. Tens of thousands have fallen in the Assail continent war. They have high magical immunity, but not complete anti-magic warding.

But damn Drizzt's butt, I like their arrogance.

[Lisheo]

Where was it said the FA were magically resistant?
RG spoiler!!!!

Spoiler

The Errant seemed to be able to wipe em out, though.

Hmmm.
Don't forget, the FA do have a warren too, its mentioned in GotM, and lets not play the GotMism card They went somewhere, why not back home?
So I suspect if they got REALLY serious, we'd have warren wielding, super-agile and strong, almost invicible martial artists annihilating EVERYTHING.
I want to see them appear again lol

Laster Lycaon Lisheo, peace out man. Or I'll punch you in the brain.

[Aptorian]

When the K'rishnan in MT tries to attack the FA nothing happens. The FA simply stopped the mage cold.

[Lisheo]

Ah ha, thank you Although I thought that was the CG not letting him use his power so the FA wouldn't think "hmmm, let's investigate..."