[Grief]

Yes, but we know others were destroyed, under KCCM rule, so it cant be anything drastic, or they wouldnt be able to be destroyed by the jaghut/tiste.

[Lisheo]

Aptorian, on Nov 11 2008, 08:40 PM, said:

Well, Moons Spawn was said to have had all kinds of machinery inside it. The andii probably didn't know how to use a fraction of the Skykeeps potential

I do believe this is even backed up by something Pannion says in MoI, something about the Matron knowing M'sS's potential.

[Osric]

Rake just never found out how to activate teh lazerz!

Seriously though, nearly every race in MBotF is overpowered. Nothing a well placed moranth grenado can't fix though.

Fucking dragon.

[Jude]

Osric is RIGHT! The HUMANS are the most overpowered race!

[thesalus]

Lisheo, on Nov 11 2008, 03:27 PM, said:

I can only guess, but the Tiste have probably more mages than the usual KCCM, who, it was said,

There might be some truth to that.

"Chapter 3 of Midnight Tides" said:

And in himself, his own growing unease. Fully three-fifths of the Tiste Edur employed sorcery. A multitude of fragments from the riven warren of Kurald Emurlahn. Shadow’s power displayed myriad flavours. Among Uruth’s sons, only Binadas walked the paths of sorcery.

[beru]

have we EVER seen a KCCM mage with "useable in combat" spells? dont think so... and only the matrons got "we got spells that can destroy the world"... and the tiste was probably outnombering them too... (<= no fact to back up only a thoth)

[RangerSG]

I think the T'lan Imass are kept in check:

1) by their vow. Only the Unbound have any free will. And as soon as something disastrous happens to them, they lose the ability to be restored (usually).

2) I do think K'rul could say, "You made the Tellan ritual using my blood, and now you've defiled it." And thus close the warren. I don't think that would instantly kill the T'lan Imass. But I do think that would do something akin to what happened to Tool. And mortal T'lan Imass would be extremely vulnerable, as so much of their ability is tied up in their "undead" state.

I think most of the other races are comparatively (1v1) overpowering to humans. But then, when any 1 of most of them falls, the whole race mourns the loss. Similar to the Vorlons in Babylon 5. And in any case, most of them can be dealt with by combined tactics, sorcery, munitions, or a combination thereof. The FA are the only thing I think that would truly be beyond non-ascendants.

[Soulessdreamer]

Grief, on Oct 19 2008, 11:21 AM, said:

Im pretty sure they're not immune to dragnipur.

Spoiler, cant remember where from, so its just in case.

Spoiler

Im not sure this is a spoiler cause I cant remember where its from, but we know that sorcery can take out that T'lan Imass.

TTH spoiler as proof: DONT READ if you haven't read TTH, as its one of the better bits in the book. You dont want to ruin it.

Spoiler

Kallor: You pwned a bunch of imass and a bonecaster.
Gothos: I pwned them.
This was post Raests chaining, which was, since the ritual was what had organised the Imass, post-ritual. I think. If gothos/raest can do it, im pretty sure Rake/K'rul would have just as little problem.

Another important argument:

The vow is what keeps them immortal. The vow is to wipe up the jaghut, stopping for nothing to do so, so as to eliminate tyrants. In fact, Tool? says that its there sacrifice for other races.
If they ignore this to go empire building, and start wiping out other races, they've pretty juch broken their vow.
These vows are pretty damn strong.
If they willfully break it, the consequences could be large.
It is the vow that keeps them "alive". If they break it, who's to say they wouldnt just, crumble.

We have seen other Imass who never took the vow but were bound up in the ritual;

Spoiler

the Imass in the mines with the broken legs

in TtH comes to mind. The Imass while powerful are not unstopable mortal weapons do affect them as well as magics and munitions.

The undead telepathic warriors from the raven novels were IMO much nastier

TTFN

[Soulessdreamer]

Silencer, on Nov 10 2008, 03:57 PM, said:

D'rek, on Oct 24 2008, 02:43 AM, said:

Rake tends to blast everything to hell. That's not rock-paper-scissors, that's paper-nuke

Funnily enough, one of my friends invented a new take on rock-paper-scissors called nuclearbomb-foot-cockroach...

@Vallel - they are somewhat explained. They train from birth to be warriors, with unparalleled discipline. That allows them, mentally and physically, to take the extra wounds and move faster. There is nothing comparable to that in this world...except perhaps a few sects of monks/whatever - some of whom have been known to set themselves on fire and burn to death...without moving or screaming.

You also point out that the Imass are easily defeatable - if anything gets past their guard they die. Same thing with the Seguleh, if anything, they die easier than Imass. An Imass needs to get completely dismembered for it to be stopped...one shot to the throat or chest would take out a Seguleh. Your problem stems from the fact that we have seen 3 Seguleh so far...one of whom was the 3rd highest ranked, said to be able to challenge the first. So that is a very good reason (especially if you take into account what I said above), for his seeming 'over-poweredness'.

I think the Seguleh are actually talked up to be more than they turned out to be. Sure, against an average Malazan soldier or whatever, they would pwn, but they aren't that powerful.

And welcome to the forums, Vallel!

Against an average soldier perhaps but any marine would would have hit the bastard with a crossbow bolt and at least 2 sharpers before he got into melee range.

Oh and I remember Nuke-foot-cockroach from primary back in the early eighties

TTFN

[Soulessdreamer]

RangerSG, on Feb 13 2009, 10:40 PM, said:

I think the T'lan Imass are kept in check:

1) by their vow. Only the Unbound have any free will. And as soon as something disastrous happens to them, they lose the ability to be restored (usually).

2) I do think K'rul could say, "You made the Tellan ritual using my blood, and now you've defiled it." And thus close the warren. I don't think that would instantly kill the T'lan Imass. But I do think that would do something akin to what happened to Tool. And mortal T'lan Imass would be extremely vulnerable, as so much of their ability is tied up in their "undead" state.

I think most of the other races are comparatively (1v1) overpowering to humans. But then, when any 1 of most of them falls, the whole race mourns the loss. Similar to the Vorlons in Babylon 5. And in any case, most of them can be dealt with by combined tactics, sorcery, munitions, or a combination thereof. The FA are the only thing I think that would truly be beyond non-ascendants.

Not necessarily if you think in terms of asymmetrical warfare. Things like booby traps and terrain denial could tip the balance of power toward regular troops.

preternatual dexterity wont save you from a pit trap, minefeild, patch of ice or piano wire at head hight if you don't see it coming. Simple cowtrops could slow a FK enough for a pikesquad to deal with it.

Think of wolves taking down a bear, infantry against heavy horse or tanks. Deny your opponant the advantages he normally enjoys or use them against him.

Entagling weapons, phalanxs, pikes and missle weapons are all non magical means of taking on a superior opponant. Just choosing the right feild of battle and time of day can make all the difference.

Also have we ever seen a FK other than by themselves? the impression I got from the novels was that they tended towards issolationism so you could dogpile the fucker if you were desperate enough.

TTFN

[A zen-like chill]

Lisheo, on Oct 18 2008, 02:04 PM, said:

The Ascendants and Gods could take em out if they got too uppity, I think. I reckon Rake could destroy em all. As could the Segulah, or say the Forkrul Assail. Theyre kept in line by a lot. But also they were made who they are by domination and tyranny, and I don't think you ever become what you hate voluntarily.

Have to disagree about the Seguleh being able to take them out (Rake too, now that I think about it). Granted, they're significantly reduced in number, but the Seguleh aren't exactly over populated. No possible way could the Seguleh survive if the T'lan Imass race decided to war on them.

Don't get me wrong, the Seguleh are supremely skilled. The Imass, however, are like a force of nature. Even Bruce Lee would get his ass handed to him by an avalanche. There's just no comparison.

This post has been edited by A zen-like chill: 15 February 2009 - 02:59 AM

[Toc]

A zen-like chill, on Feb 15 2009, 03:48 AM, said:

Lisheo, on Oct 18 2008, 02:04 PM, said:

The Ascendants and Gods could take em out if they got too uppity, I think. I reckon Rake could destroy em all. As could the Segulah, or say the Forkrul Assail. Theyre kept in line by a lot. But also they were made who they are by domination and tyranny, and I don't think you ever become what you hate voluntarily.

Have to disagree about the Seguleh being able to take them out (Rake too, now that I think about it). Granted, they're significantly reduced in number, but the Seguleh aren't exactly over populated. No possible way could the Seguleh survive if the T'lan Imass race decided to war on them.

Don't get me wrong, the Seguleh are supremely skilled. The Imass, however, are like a force of nature. Even Bruce Lee would get his ass handed to him by an avalanche. There's just no comparison.

I agree with your point about the Seguleh, I think the T'lan Imass would win a war between the two.
But you're in way to deep water when you say that Bruce Lee wouldn't take them...!

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Yeah, there's no way Rake, as great as he is, would be able to stand against thousands of T'lan including multiple Bonecasters and, presumably, Silverfox. The imass arent exactly poor fighters, and sheer weight of numbers combined with the bonecasters neutralising much of his magic threat ensures an Imass win.

Likewise, the Seguleh would be put on the backfoot by magic before any battle even began.

[Grief]

If we're talking about thousands of them however, its only fair that Rake gets the tiste andii, in which case, he would win.

Its also possible that a strong/skilled enough mage could take apart the ritual completely.

As for Rake vs. the Imass, it'd be an odd fight.

The only way I can think that Rake could win would be to veer and take them from the air, thus anulling a lot of their numbers advantage.
As for his magic, he can destroys cities and has taken on elder gods and 3 eleint at once so he'd have a decent chance against the bonecasters, and the imass would have problems attacking him if he were to veer.

For example, in Memories of Ice, silverfox says its too much to ask that they start a war against the KCCM like they did to the jaghut. They're certainly not unstoppable.

[Aptorian]

The Imas set the skies on fire in their battles against the Jaghut. Olar Ethil alone would probably mean a serious oh shit moment for rake.

[Grief]

Aye, but their job is much harder.
They have to keep the whole sky on fire, he just has to keep himself cool.
Plus that gives him something to hide in.

But yes, I'm pretty sure Rake couldn't take on all the Imass.
A few hundred, perhaps, all of them no.
But then, all the TA would defeat all the TI.

[Hinter]

Aptorian, on Feb 16 2009, 04:32 PM, said:

The Imas set the skies on fire in their battles against the Jaghut. Olar Ethil alone would probably mean a serious oh shit moment for rake.

TtH spoiler

Spoiler

Ah, but Rake is immune to fire. Remember the scene in TtH where he's talking to Endest Silann and he scorches his boots.

This post has been edited by Hinter: 16 February 2009 - 04:48 PM

[Aptorian]

My point was, badly put I admit, that if the Imass needed it, they could get enough Bonecasters together to knock that dragon out of the sky faster than you can say "fucking dragon".

[muco]

Jaghut are extremly powerful. In magic some of them are more powerful than even Rake.

Given their limited numbers, Andii would have a really tough time surviving Imass if it came to war. Where Andii would die as easy as humans, killing a T'lan Imass would take a super natural effort.

[End of Disc One]

muco, on Feb 17 2009, 04:16 AM, said:

Jaghut are extremly powerful. In magic some of them are more powerful than even Rake.

Uh oh, let's not open this can...