[Aptorian]

After, I'm thinking, Raest would have been insanely strong if he got it.

[blackzoid]

Good call on the quote Apt, I had forgotten that Rake wasn't sure he could beat Raest. My bad.

One question, Tool says that if Raest managed to enslave a Bonecastor, it would be so much worse.
That they would challange the gods and kill most of them. Why? Would a bonecaster's power add so much to Raest?
Raest if he got to his finnest would not need the Bonecaster I think.

Still Raest's magical powers were probably among the best we have seen in the series.
The fight would probably have been Raest pummeling Rake from far away while Rake trys to shields himself so that he can get close enoughto use Dragnipur. Without Dragnipur, Rake may be a goner.
Probably the only person who could then survive Raest's full power and keep going would be Icarium.

[Grief]

I can't see how rake would know Raest didn't have his finnest though, so I lean towards with.
I mean, if thats a fraction of his power, and it equals Rakes, and he's not the only Jaghut of that power, it makes them ridiculously overpowered.
I don't think theres any evidence either way though, so i'd assume with, since Rake wouldn't know otherwise.

[Grief]

I'd disagree there. Pretty sure Gothos mentions he stops icarium.
Icarium, he's not that magically resistant. Some yes, but not that much.

I think the bonecaster bit could be Gotmism, cause there must've been bonecasters at the time, so why hadn't it occured to him before?

I reckon magically it'd be close, and a battle i'd like to see, simply cause they're magically two of the most evenly matched we know about, I reckon.

[blackzoid]

 Grief, on Feb 19 2009, 12:47 PM, said:

I'd disagree there. Pretty sure Gothos mentions he stops icarium.
Icarium, he's not that magically resistant. Some yes, but not that much.

I think the bonecaster bit could be Gotmism, cause there must've been bonecasters at the time, so why hadn't it occured to him before?

I reckon magically it'd be close, and a battle i'd like to see, simply cause they're magically two of the most evenly matched we know about, I reckon.

Spoiler

Icarium survived Quick Ben's full power. And Quick Ben has taken down Draconian Ascendents.
Its onle the Eres ex machima who has taken out Icarium magically. The key would be to knock him out before he goes in to full rage mode like Karsa did. Otherwise you run the hell away.

Where does Gothos mention that he stopped Icarium? I don't remember that and I have recently reread DG. (Although I had forgotten the Rake quote too)

[Grief]

Can't recall where its mentioned. Think its implied somewhere though.

Spoiler

And QB isn't the most magical powerhouse about. He took them down yes, but:

1. If you're flying and something hits you in the wind, it doesn't have to be the most powerful thing ever, and he hits them when they're not really defending themselves much.
2. They're not actually massively powerful from what we've seen. Not all of them anyway.
3. They fight stupidly, flying down and just breathing stuff. From what we've seen, magically, most of the ascendants do better when un veered.

I'm not sure QB would take them down in a straight fight, when they weren't veered.

The other thing is, QB seems fairly rubbish at keeping oging for too long in an intense situation. For example, he uses it all at once, and then is used up. Many other mages seem to be able to keep going at high level power for a much longer time.

Icarium is difficult to kill, certainly. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Gothos, Rake, Raest, Osric etc, couldn't do so with magic.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Quote

I think the bonecaster bit could be Gotmism, cause there must've been bonecasters at the time, so why hadn't it occured to him before?

I believe it meant that if Raest overpowered a Bonecaster,he would have had complete access and control over Tellann and all T'lann Imass. And that wouldn't have been a nice thing.

[End of Disc One]

Guys this is the Bonehunters forum.

[D'rek]

 Grief, on Feb 19 2009, 07:47 AM, said:

I think the bonecaster bit could be Gotmism, cause there must've been bonecasters at the time, so why hadn't it occured to him before?

I think Bauchelain is right. When Raest was in his fullest power the Tlann Imass Bonecasters had the Beast Hold as the heart of their power, I suspect Raest was fairly busy fighting off gadzooks of Imass and other Jaghut when the Ritual was called and so he didn't have much of an opportunity to take over a T'lan Imass Bonecaster before being beaten.

[Grief]

Tbh, im not sure the bonecaster is massively important.
From what we've seen.

Spoiler

Raest could probably challenge/defeat most of the gods anyhow. With the exception of the Elders and Hood, I can think of few he wouldn't. Its possible the bonecaster just serves as his way of finding them, like idk, Heboric and Fener, Talmandas and Hood when QB finds him via Tal. It may be something to dow ith the fact that the Bonecasters are heavily into the spirit world, so means he can find the gods.

[Aptorian]

The bit about Raest being able to somehow enslave the Imass was actually an essential part of the plot. It is why Tool is used to help the Malazan. Since he is clanless he is not connected with any of the armies nearby and therefore, if he fails, he doesn't risk the rest of the Imass' safety.

It don't think it was implied that the whole warren of Tellan or all the Imass were in trouble if Raest got a Bonecaster, just the clan. For example if he got one from the Logros T'lan Imass, then they would fall to him, but the rest would still be free to move against him.

[D'rek]

I guess once he had a Bonecaster he could instantly bend the entire clan to his will. Without, he could do that anyway, but he'd have to do it one at a time. And I suppose a small army of T'lan Imass working for him would be scary enough...

though since the term 'clan' is used so unspecifically with the Imass, we don't really know if enslaving a Bonecaster would link him to just the Bonecaster's clan (ie the Tarad clan) or to an entire Imass 'army' (ie the Logros T'lan Imass or the Kron, etc. These are sometimes also called 'clans' and they shouldn't be)...

[Soulessdreamer]

As to the Imass do we have any idea what ottateral does to them? or the binding magic of the ritual?

TTFN

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I have one problem with Rake saying he is uncertain about his ability to defeat Raest. When he and Baruk are talking about the Malazans freeing a Jaghut Tyrant Rake doesn't know which one does he? It would seem unlikely to me, and I was under the impression that Rake thought any Tyrant would be a challenge for him. It was also my impression that Raest wasn't just any Tyrant. For starters he was imprisoned by other Jaghut, not T'lan Imass. Also, after opening the barrow Tool sees Raest's name or something and tells Lorn that he recognizes this Tyrant and he no longer thinks they should free him (don't have the book at school w/me so I can't give an exact quote). I'm not saying that this decides anything, but nobody had brought it up so I figured I would.

[Grief]

Rake knows which tyrant is imprisoned nearby, since he is aware of the myth, and very knowledgeable on such matters.