[tiam]

blackzoid;352404 said:

As a result of the new info in Toll, I got the impression that the Jaghut are much older then we thought they were. Now I think they were there before the Deragoth and the KCCM. This war against death may have been the main point behind the break up of the Jaghut civilisation.

My opinion?

Hood led the war against death, was defeated,and in a compromise solution became the lord of death in order to make death "fair". (I'm thinking of DEATH from Terry Pratchet's Discworld series here)
My prediction for the future is that Hood will reclaim the throne of the Jaghut and will rejuvenate Omtose Phellack. Or at least thats what his intention is.

Did anyone else notice in Toll the Hounds that it was metnioned that the Forkrul Assail and the Jaghut had opposite temperaments. Yet in Midnight Tides, Ruin said that there was the occasional alliance between them.

The KCCM precede anything being the first born of dragons. By before anything i mean before anything bar the Tiste EG Dargon order that we dont know yet. The jaghut were a fringe race when the KCCM were dominant then as they started to decline the jaghut added to this. We see this in their use of Omtose Phellack that led to the kccm seeking insulation

The Jaghut were also allied with the FA in their war against death showing they had been reasonably compatible allies. I think the temperament thing is that the Jaghut are very pasive whereas the FA are comlpletely mental and must attack

[Coco with marshmallows]

HoosierDaddy;352686 said:

What ongoing war between the Jaghut and F.A.?

it's mentioned in a discussion either to or about Rake if memory serves. don't have the book handy (and only had one readthrough at present anyway).

something along the lines of what other causes are there to fight for, and whether or not Rake should get involved.

[HoosierDaddy]

Cocoreturns;352737 said:

it's mentioned in a discussion either to or about Rake if memory serves. don't have the book handy (and only had one readthrough at present anyway).

something along the lines of what other causes are there to fight for, and whether or not Rake should get involved.

Huh. I don't remember that. So the Jaghut and F.A. have been both allies and enemies. Poor Jaghut: help out the Imass take down tyrants, then get killed by them. Ally with F.A., then get in a war with them. No wonder the bastards all seek solitude, everyone who gets around them ends up killing them!

[Coco with marshmallows]

HoosierDaddy;352751 said:

No wonder the bastards all seek solitude, everyone who gets around them ends up killing them!

probably their own fault - i have a personal theory that all Jaghut have very bad breath.

after all, must be difficult to floss with all those tusks:rolleyes:

[Morgoth]

tiam;352736 said:

The KCCM precede anything being the first born of dragons. By before anything i mean before anything bar the Tiste EG Dargon order that we dont know yet. The jaghut were a fringe race when the KCCM were dominant then as they started to decline the jaghut added to this. We see this in their use of Omtose Phellack that led to the kccm seeking insulation

The Jaghut were also allied with the FA in their war against death showing they had been reasonably compatible allies. I think the temperament thing is that the Jaghut are very pasive whereas the FA are comlpletely mental and must attack

How do you know this? Is this a quote I missed somewhere? As I understand it, the KC are alien to WU, that is pretty clear. And unless there's some actuall dates somewhere, we do not know whether they appeared before the war against death, or after. An army of Jaguht of the size mentioned is assuredly more awsome than anything else we've seen so far. Isn't it more logical that the KC appeared afterwards? And as such, for all we know, the Jaguth might be an older race than the KC

[anothevilbadguy]

Isn't it mentioned in the prologue of MT(?) when the Andii and Edur are fighting the KCCM that all of them are alien to Wu (although KCCM have been there longer), or maybe by Udinas at some point. Anyway, from how I perceived things the Jaghut and FA certainly predate the KCCM on Wu, and possibly also the Imass.
Cannot remember any comment relating the KCCM to dragons, but I guess they are both reptile, so maybe.

[Sinisdar Toste]

the KCCM are constantly referred to as the first born of dragons, im guessing they were another species of demon living in SD, there is a list of such creatures somewhere in the seires.

[anothevilbadguy]

You are probably right, they are quite dragony (even if I do imagine them as big cockroaches). Plus, if they are related to dragons then it is likely they are from SD (or another livable warren), so that would link up with them not being native to Wu.

[tiam]

Morgoth;352859 said:

How do you know this? Is this a quote I missed somewhere? As I understand it, the KC are alien to WU, that is pretty clear. And unless there's some actuall dates somewhere, we do not know whether they appeared before the war against death, or after. An army of Jaguht of the size mentioned is assuredly more awsome than anything else we've seen so far. Isn't it more logical that the KC appeared afterwards? And as such, for all we know, the Jaguth might be an older race than the KC

Its not really a direct quote.

The KCCM are the first born of dragons whiich means they are old. Now dragons either came first second or third in the whole who came first thing making there first borns very old. i admit thhis is simply conjecture. Theres a quote in MT about a stretch of land. If you remember the 'explorer' that SE uses to tell us about this plain of vast flagstones is that you cant slip a dagger in eetween the cracks. Havnt got page numbers but if that jogs your memory then in tht extract it says it goes back atleast 500 000 years. This of course makes sense as the Imass where way into there war with the jaghut 300 000 years ago when they did the ritual.

We see in the MOI prologue Kilava take the two jaghut babies into Morn. Now at this point and at other points during the series signs of Jaghut civilisation is seen as younger than KCCM. On all continents KCCM civilisation prcedes everything.

A better quote than all this suggesting the KCCM came first is Kallors quote in MOI that states 'the jaghut were to the KCCM what the Imass were to the Jaghut'. We all presume that Jaghut precedes Imass so why not with the KCCM? Also the quote also says that the Jaghut were driven away by the KCCM at this time. This does not give the Jaghut the numbers or organisation at this time.

[Morgoth]

tiam;353159 said:

Its not really a direct quote.

The KCCM are the first born of dragons whiich means they are old. Now dragons either came first second or third in the whole who came first thing making there first borns very old. i admit thhis is simply conjecture. Theres a quote in MT about a stretch of land. If you remember the 'explorer' that SE uses to tell us about this plain of vast flagstones is that you cant slip a dagger in eetween the cracks. Havnt got page numbers but if that jogs your memory then in tht extract it says it goes back atleast 500 000 years. This of course makes sense as the Imass where way into there war with the jaghut 300 000 years ago when they did the ritual.

We see in the MOI prologue Kilava take the two jaghut babies into Morn. Now at this point and at other points during the series signs of Jaghut civilisation is seen as younger than KCCM. On all continents KCCM civilisation prcedes everything.

A better quote than all this suggesting the KCCM came first is Kallors quote in MOI that states 'the jaghut were to the KCCM what the Imass were to the Jaghut'. We all presume that Jaghut precedes Imass so why not with the KCCM? Also the quote also says that the Jaghut were driven away by the KCCM at this time. This does not give the Jaghut the numbers or organisation at this time.

Yes, i see your point, but there are some things that do not match entirely. First and foremost, what we have seen of the Jaghut so far has been of the very end of their civilization. Long after -presumably- their war with death. So, the mother of the pannion tyrant and so forth really does not tell us anything of the age of their civilization. At that time, the golden age of the Jaghut was long gone. We know this because already when the Imass declared their war, the Jaghut were few and far spread.

As to the KC and Jaghut musings by Kallor, we have learned that he had known nothing about this war against death, so he would not know if a greater Jaghut civilization preced the KC invasion. To me, this seems more than likely in all honesty. The Jaghut had no such massive civilization when the Tiste destroyed the last remnants of the KC, I think that's fairly clear from what we know. Are you saying that the Jaghut waged war during their enslavement to the KC? It could most likely not have happened after the destruction of the KC as Tulas Shorn witnessed this war on death and he was dead already by then I presume, killed by scabby, or perhaps rake.

So, the Jaghut war would most likely have to have happend before or during their... supression by the KC. I certainly do not believe it happened during as that would just not be... logical

[Illuyankas]

Yes, but Kallor didn't know about the Jaghut's war on death. I don't see any problems with this war occuring, them losing, and then the KCCM appearing and taking over.

[Morgoth]

Illuyankas;353246 said:

Yes, but Kallor didn't know about the Jaghut's war on death. I don't see any problems with this war occuring, them losing, and then the KCCM appearing and taking over.

Isn't that what I said? I must've worded myself badly

[Illuyankas]

Oh, it's what you said, just not in tl;dr* format. Also, no-one reads YOUR posts.



* tl;dr = too long ; didn't read

[Morgoth]

Illuyankas;353262 said:

Oh, it's what you said, just not in tl;dr* format. Also, no-one reads YOUR posts.



* tl;dr = too long ; didn't read

everyone reads my posts. There's quite a large following of people copying down everything I write into their book of gospels.

DM and Jenny lead the cult, if you want to join

[graller]

HoosierDaddy;352686 said:

The Jaghut were originally slaves to the K'Chain as the Imass were originally slaves to Jaghut tyrants. What ongoing war between the Jaghut and F.A.? There aren't a whole lot of either around right now running around.

Its in a conversation that Endest has with Caladan Brood. Brood mentions that there is an ongoing war between the Jaghut and the FA and Endest asks him where. He says "Far away and thank goodness as imagine what your master would do if he knew" and Endest envisions that Rake would feel obligated to intervene. I read it as being tied to Assail where we know there are both races still present.

[Illuyankas]

Morgoth;353322 said:

everyone reads my posts. There's quite a large following of people copying down everything I write into their book of gospels.

DM and Jenny lead the cult, if you want to join

Ah, the infamous 'How Not To Do It' cult. I hear it's quite popular.

[Tiger_sword]

graller;353480 said:

Its in a conversation that Endest has with Caladan Brood. Brood mentions that there is an ongoing war between the Jaghut and the FA and Endest asks him where. He says "Far away and thank goodness as imagine what your master would do if he knew" and Endest envisions that Rake would feel obligated to intervene. I read it as being tied to Assail where we know there are both races still present.

Not to mention the conversation in TtH between Kallor and Tulas Shorn:

page 574:

Quote

Kallor considered that for a moment, and then he grunted and said 'I am not well versed in Jaghut history. What war was this? The K'Chain Che'malle? The Forkrul Assail? He squinted at the dragon. 'Or perhaps, you Eleint?'

Could either be he is listing the wars he knows between the Jaghut and other species or just a random list of peoples he knows of not sure how to read it. Also Tulas Shorn is Edur and has great knowledge of this war (even if he didn't take part in it himself) meaning it must have taken place at a time that the Tiste races knew of Wu

[Raraku]

graller;353480 said:

Its in a conversation that Endest has with Caladan Brood. Brood mentions that there is an ongoing war between the Jaghut and the FA and Endest asks him where. He says "Far away and thank goodness as imagine what your master would do if he knew" and Endest envisions that Rake would feel obligated to intervene. I read it as being tied to Assail where we know there are both races still present.

Its a good theory but in MOI when Envy meets the Imass just escaped from Assail, the Imass says they were warring against a human tyrant.

[Coco with marshmallows]

Raraku;353513 said:

Its a good theory but in MOI when Envy meets the Imass just escaped from Assail, the Imass says they were warring against a human tyrant.

just because the Imass are warring against human tyrants doesn't mean Jaghut and KCCM aren't kicking the crap out of each other elsewhere.

For one thing, it's an entire continent.
For another, most of the (somewhat shadowy) hints we've had about Assail indicate that the entire place is a nuthouse, almost as if there is something there that drives everyone to violence.

[Sinisdar Toste]

like the land of madmen from WoT! i always thought of that place as australia.