[Osric]

Well look, Crokus is a pretty good fighter and all, he's been practising non-stop for a long time and got taught by the best. But he's no ascendant, he wont be facing off against any tyrant and he knows it. Im pretty sure he went to darujistan because he felt it was in danger and he wanted to warn people and maybe help out if he could. But I doubt he has any illusions about the city desperately needing him when theres already so many ascendants and other powerful characters around, and after what happened in THTH Im pretty sure he realised everybody knows something is going on.

All in all he did go to darujistan because he wanted to help and also because he wanted to face his past again. He wanted to meet up with his friends and find out if he could have his old life back, which he found out he could not. So basically there's no more reason for him to stay there really.

About his skill, obviously he's very skilled but he's also pretty young and has no special powers. He faced off rallick very well, I'm pretty sure he would have won if they continued, but we can't know that for sure. At the very least we know he's just as good as Rallick which is an admirable feat for someone so young against someone whos been an assasin most his life.

He was pretty emo throughout the book but he did face all the bad things of his past, his illusions about his first love, his friends and the stuff that held meaning to him as Crokus. He changed throughout the series because of everything he's been through, so he took a second name and decided this was a different personality. But thats not how it works, you change and you cant just go back to who you used to be, this is a point I think Erikson is trying to make. Now Crokus found that out and accepted it, so he went back to using the name Crokus, and I think it took a big weight of his shoulders.

[Epiph]

zwitterion, on Oct 10 2008, 12:49 AM, said:

I hadn't thought about that but it's true; if we'd given half a shit about Challice by this point that death would have been really poignant but as it was my reaction was pretty much "eh probly for the best. ooh hounds...". It wasn't a bad part of the book but now I realise it was definitely a missed opportunity. Or maybe SE WAS trying to pull off some pathos there and just failed.

Really? Because, while I found her attitude of "Woe is me!" unbearable, I felt a distinct sorrow for the missed opportunities of Challice's life. It was all her own fault and her own choices that led to it, and she could have pulled it together and salvaged her life, but she didn't, and that's the tragedy of it. Sort of like Felisin. Hmm, that's an interesting comparison...because if Challice were put in Felisin's position, I think she would have just given up, totally counterpoint to Felisin's will to survive--even though, in Felisin's attempts to survive, she became something rather despicable.

Maybe I am so alone in being bothered by Cutter/Crokus not going to find her because I did feel distinctly sorry for Challice. So clearly, whatever SE was trying to do with Challice would have been better served if she'd been just a little more sympathetic.

[lfex]

I also pity Challice, even if she wasn't very likable character. She could have a chance to start a new life, perhaps avoiding the same mistakes, but she didn't. It was perhaps most poignant that her suicide was completely unnecessary. Shardan Lim had nothing left to threaten her with and she could start anew, but she chose to give up. It perhaps doesn't make her very sympathetic to us, but it still tragic.

[Gem Windcaster]

Abyss, on Aug 25 2008, 07:33 PM, said:

plus we have Cotillion's blessing

Actually, didn't he refuse any blessing? I distinctly remember Cutter saying he didn't want any, and Cot saying something about Cutter walking in Kalams footsteps.

Also, are we so sure he changed back to Crokus? I got the impression it was only temporary, during his stay in Darujistan. Kinda like trying on the old name, so see if it fit - but it really didn't, so he left.

[Ammanas]

Gem Windcaster, on Oct 10 2008, 07:22 PM, said:

Abyss, on Aug 25 2008, 07:33 PM, said:

plus we have Cotillion's blessing

Actually, didn't he refuse any blessing? I distinctly remember Cutter saying he didn't want any, and Cot saying something about Cutter walking in Kalams footsteps.

Also, are we so sure he changed back to Crokus? I got the impression it was only temporary, during his stay in Darujistan. Kinda like trying on the old name, so see if it fit - but it really didn't, so he left.

I theorize that Cutter dies in the process of derailing one of ST's schemes. He was pretty upset about ST unleashing the Hounds in Daru. It'll be interesting to see if he actually returns to 7C.

[Jude]

Gem Windcaster, on Oct 10 2008, 08:22 PM, said:

Abyss, on Aug 25 2008, 07:33 PM, said:

plus we have Cotillion's blessing

Also, are we so sure he changed back to Crokus? I got the impression it was only temporary, during his stay in Darujistan. Kinda like trying on the old name, so see if it fit - but it really didn't, so he left.

I might be wrong here but i THINK he was cutter the entire time he was in Darujhistan and only changed back to Crockus at the end, when Karsa asked him his name.

[Lisheo]

Yeah. It was once he realised that Cutter wasn't him. He also tells Karsa he's a thief instead of an assassin.

[dawnkiller]

Epiph, on Oct 10 2008, 12:12 PM, said:

Maybe I am so alone in being bothered by Cutter/Crokus not going to find her because I did feel distinctly sorry for Challice. So clearly, whatever SE was trying to do with Challice would have been better served if she'd been just a little more sympathetic.

I think it actually worked pretty well -- one of the strengths of SE in my opinion is that he presents different POVs. That doesn't mean just getting into other character's heads, but how they see the world as well. Challice's trevails seemed like a big deal to her (and us, when it was her POV) because that was her "world". Likewise, Cutter was only the second man she'd ever slept with, which to her was a big part of the relationship -- and, because she didn't have much else to cling to, her life.

From Cutter's POV, everything after Apsalar, whom he actually loved, was basically just killing time. Plus, Cutter's a guy who has semi-regular conversations with Ascendants. His priorities and involvement with the world were so much broader than Challice's that their relationship (already a rebound) was barely a drop in the bucket to him. By the time the climax rolled around he was already onto other things, thinking (if he did at all) that she would probably be okay with Gorlas dead. He never even realized how big a part he played in her life.

This is tragic, but brutally realistic. Feelings get overlooked our outright missed fairly often, as does not being recognized for the person you really are, and it's a minor reoccuring theme in the books. In the same book Spin and the High Priestess come to mind, as do Spin and Salind (who I don't think ever had any idea that he was in love with her). A particularly brutal example was Felisin vs. Tavore in HoC. To Felisin, Tavore was her disapproving elder sister, the person who had sentenced her to slavery (never knowing Tavore had tried to protect her). To Tavore, she was simply an enemy, and was dispatched as such. No closure, no acknowledgement. Ouch.

So yeah -- Challice's death was a tragedy, even though she was unlikeable. It was just one in a long line of needless waste.

[Epiph]

dawnkiller, on Oct 15 2008, 08:18 AM, said:

I think it actually worked pretty well -- one of the strengths of SE in my opinion is that he presents different POVs. That doesn't mean just getting into other character's heads, but how they see the world as well. Challice's trevails seemed like a big deal to her (and us, when it was her POV) because that was her "world". Likewise, Cutter was only the second man she'd ever slept with, which to her was a big part of the relationship -- and, because she didn't have much else to cling to, her life.

Third, I think. She was already whoring it up by the time she ran into Cutter.

Quote

From Cutter's POV, everything after Apsalar, whom he actually loved, was basically just killing time. Plus, Cutter's a guy who has semi-regular conversations with Ascendants. His priorities and involvement with the world were so much broader than Challice's that their relationship (already a rebound) was barely a drop in the bucket to him. By the time the climax rolled around he was already onto other things, thinking (if he did at all) that she would probably be okay with Gorlas dead. He never even realized how big a part he played in her life.

I would be fine with this explanation except that, just before the fight with the HoL, Cutter was on his way to tell Challice about Gorlas' death because Cutter had realized how poorly he had treated the women he'd been involved with since Apsalar. In essence, whether or not Cutter realized how big a part he played in Challice's life, he did realize that he'd been a total ass and wanted to make amends. Also, I'm pretty sure Cutter thought he was actually a bigger part of Challice's life than she thought he was.

I grant that by the time the climax was done, there were much bigger things on Cutter's mind, but it still bothered me. It struck me as a false fresh start, because he never bothered to resolve the old issues. But maybe that was SE's point.

Quote

This is tragic, but brutally realistic. Feelings get overlooked our outright missed fairly often, as does not being recognized for the person you really are, and it's a minor reoccuring theme in the books. In the same book Spin and the High Priestess come to mind, as do Spin and Salind (who I don't think ever had any idea that he was in love with her). A particularly brutal example was Felisin vs. Tavore in HoC. To Felisin, Tavore was her disapproving elder sister, the person who had sentenced her to slavery (never knowing Tavore had tried to protect her). To Tavore, she was simply an enemy, and was dispatched as such. No closure, no acknowledgement. Ouch.

Actually, I think it's made pretty clear that, to Tavore, Felisin was not the enemy at all. To save Felisin and to save their house, Tavore had to act like these things meant nothing to her, but did what she could to protect Felisin. Felisin just never realized it.

[dawnkiller]

Epiph, on Oct 15 2008, 09:45 AM, said:

Third, I think. She was already whoring it up by the time she ran into Cutter.

I'm pretty sure she'd only ever been with her husband and . . . that other guy. People just THOUGHT she'd been with more because of the facade she was putting on. (I got the impression Challice had chosen her path and decided to go ahead with it full-bore, so started coming off more experienced than she really was.)

Quote

I would be fine with this explanation except that, just before the fight with the HoL, Cutter was on his way to tell Challice about Gorlas' death because Cutter had realized how poorly he had treated the women he'd been involved with since Apsalar. In essence, whether or not Cutter realized how big a part he played in Challice's life, he did realize that he'd been a total ass and wanted to make amends. Also, I'm pretty sure Cutter thought he was actually a bigger part of Challice's life than she thought he was.

I grant that by the time the climax was done, there were much bigger things on Cutter's mind, but it still bothered me. It struck me as a false fresh start, because he never bothered to resolve the old issues. But maybe that was SE's point.

Yeah, SE is kind of big on the "not everything is wrapped up in a tidy bow by the end" (re: Heboric). I do agree that Crokus' "fresh start" having to do with neglecting the last thing he did as Cutter was kind of a broken aesop, though alternately it could just have been for strictly narrative reasons . . . the pacing of the climax, wanting the image of Challice falling to her death, etc. Sometimes it just happens like that.

Quote

Actually, I think it's made pretty clear that, to Tavore, Felisin was not the enemy at all. To save Felisin and to save their house, Tavore had to act like these things meant nothing to her, but did what she could to protect Felisin. Felisin just never realized it.

Yeah, and that was the tragedy -- Tavore never knew that Sha'ik Reborn was actually her younger sister, who she'd assigned Lostra Yil and Pearl to try and save. Family matters were heavily on Felisin's mind during that confrontation, but they never crossed Tavore's mind because Tavore had no clue who she was really fighting. Had Tavore known, they might have reconciled -- but unfortunately for all Tavore knew Felisin was simply the leader of the uprising she'd been sent to quell. Which sucked. Felisin's last thoughts were just depressing. "I just wanted to know, Tavore, why you didn't love me when I loved you." -- never knowing that her sister did.

[Blend]

dawnkiller, on Oct 15 2008, 02:56 PM, said:

Epiph, on Oct 15 2008, 09:45 AM, said:

Third, I think. She was already whoring it up by the time she ran into Cutter.

"I just wanted to know, Tavore, why you didn't love me when I loved you." -- never knowing that her sister did.

It's lines, and scenes, like that that make this series so incredibly frakking brilliant!

[Jude]

Yeah I think it's that Tavore vs Felisin scene that bothers me the most in all the malazan books. I don't mean it bothers me because I didn't like it. I just meant that it's sooo horribly depressing and brutal that it stays with me and makes me flinch every time I think about it. I commend SE for that. haha. Like, with all the other tragedy that has happened throughout the series I think that might be the big one. Too bad it had to happen in HoC.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I am satisfied with the fact he's headed back to 7C. Means that unless SE doesn't consider him crucial to the storyline, the plot will be heading that way. And I can't see Crokus being left out.

It doesn't seem to me that Crokus improved. What with Darujhistan turning sour, I didn't think things would go as planned (they never do). But now he's come away still running away from his problems. In fact, what are his plans? I don't recall him having any, in fact.

EDIT: Challice killed herself? WOW. Still a rookie...

One simple word....THEY plummeted together. Man I am so unbelievably stupid.

This post has been edited by Ain't_It_Just_: 17 October 2008 - 10:26 AM

[Notelrac]

Jude, on Oct 15 2008, 05:18 PM, said:

Yeah I think it's that Tavore vs Felisin scene that bothers me the most in all the malazan books. I don't mean it bothers me because I didn't like it. I just meant that it's sooo horribly depressing and brutal that it stays with me and makes me flinch every time I think about it. I commend SE for that.

In an interview, the author says that he starts every novel with a vision in his mind, a scene that he wraps the novel about. For HoC, I expect it was the Tavore walking up the hill, stabbing her sister, and walking back down again.

[Lisheo]

Nah the scene that did HoC was the Dead Bridgeburners slaughtering the Apocalypse. Delicious irony, I thought. The killed killing the killers. With kills.

[Moby]

If you don't see a Cotillion/Crokus meeting on the ship very early in DoD I'll be surprised... that's usually the sort of thing SE does to provide direction in the beginning, a shadowy meeting, etc.

[Aptorian]

But there's no reason for Erikson to use Crokus again. His destiny lied in Darujistan and with the Tyrant. It's over now, and he left again (which made no fucking sense at all) but that doesn't mean that Crokus will suddenly show up on Lether or something like that.

I really hope that Crokus/Cutter/EMO stays out of the books for now and maybe untill ICE gets around to wrapping up this disappointing Tyrant storyarc.

[Moby]

and now his (i hate to use the word destiny, so let's use path instead) is taking him to 7C, possibly OI...

[Mentalist]

Hmm
SE told us he won't be going back to 7C
maybe we'll see Crokus with Aps at some point on Quon Tali or something, but I wouldn't count on it.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I re-read that part with Crokus leaving:

"I am returning to Seven Cities."
"Close enough."

Let's take a look at the map...

I reckon SE has been masterful. Will we see him again, or not. No real evidence either way. Delicious climaxes, I bet.