[Aptorian]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Nov 22 2008, 11:13 AM, said:

And that if they punched someone, they'd probably go through a wall.

Actually, Parans phrased it metaphorically, but added that some ascendants might litterally put you through a brickwall (like Apsalar kicking the HoS in BH). What he ment was that ascendants actions have consequences. Their actions make ripples.

Urizen, on Nov 22 2008, 12:51 PM, said:

I seem to remeber that the title of First Hero is just an old way of refering to Ascendants so Trake was already an ascendant when he died. He went from Ascendant to God by dying.

Well, First Hero sounds more like a military tittle. I'm guessing the First Heroes were champions of the empire, like the First Sword are today.

You have to remember that in the First Empire days, all the nobility, etc. could become ascendant or soletaken. I doubt all ascendants were called first heroes.

[Jude]

So in conclusion, an ascendant is halfway between a guy from Dragon Ball Z and a Ta'veren. Also, trake being an ascendant and dying to become a god doesn't make that much sense. from mortal to ascendant to god isn't a linear scale. a God, like mentioned before, is just an ascendant with worshippers or posessing a realm throne. The only way this makes sense is if after Trake died, people started worshipping it.

This post has been edited by Jude: 24 November 2008 - 10:16 PM

[Benji]

When the Bonehunters were underneath Y'Ghatan, one of them had a vision from the capelbarra of Trake dying then becoming a god. He/She says something like 'to rise so high, they first had to leave everything behind.' Similarly, in Night of Knives, the guy who Kiska saw die (Oleg?) said that for Kellanved to ascend he first had to lose everything. Tayschrenn and Kiska both took this to mean suicide, but I have another view:

It's said that the Bridgeburners got their past burnt away whilst travelling Raraku after Quick Ben, this was apparently the first step on their way to ascension. Maybe, instead of dying, they just had to lose everything that they were. For Trake, he suddenly remembered what it was like to be human again as he was dying. For someone who spent most of their life giving in to animalistic urges, this would be like he lost that major part of his life. For Kell and Dancer, they lost the empire which had been theirs for most of their life.

Just a theory of course... Don't know how much sense it makes

[Traveller]

Spoiler

I think that Kellanved and Dancer did die to ascend - they made their way into the Deadhouse, all cut up and, well, dead, under the light of the Shadow Moon, which kept them animate.

It's only once they enter that they gain their 'shadow' form, anyway, and their mortal remains disappear. I thought that was the whole point of the timing with the Shadow Moon.

EDIT sorry thread hopping again... apologies for unspoilered *kicks self hard*

This post has been edited by Traveller: 08 December 2008 - 12:38 PM

[D'rek]

(NoK)

Spoiler

There had to be more to it then that, or else Ash and his buddies, the Talons and the Claws would all have been also kept animate, when instead a lot of them died, and hence Laseen would've gotten a bit suspicious of K&D's actions when all her bodyguards got back up from being stabbed in the face...

[Traveller]

Its a bit ambiguous for a book that was assumed would describe how K and D ascended/died.

Spoiler

They both go upstairs to where Laseen is.... there are sounds of fighting, but no bodies left, as they supposedly went over a ledge/cliff or something. (I haven't read it for a while..)

Laseen used otataral all over the floor, so they couldn't have done anything magical - but if they'd got away alive, Laseen surely would have had to go after them. She must have been certain that they were dead - but she ws pissed that she didn't have their bodies.

When K and D appear at the back of the Deadhouse, they are described, pretty much, as looking so cut up that they couldn't have been alive. Which made me think that maybe they weren't... and they knew somehow what would happen when they reached the deadhouse under a shadow moon.

When they enter, which they are allowed to do, they then transform into shadow - the 'transubstantiation' as mentioned by Oleg. He pretty much describes the process though; I think he was supposed to be more involved in it too.

The whole tranformation/ascention seems to happen then, which is obviously not unexpected - K and D know this will happen. I thought that originally they had also set up Laseen, by predicting that she'd be the hand that killed them, but I'm more uncertain about this now, as why would Cots and ST want revenge on her if she'd done what they wanted? And in GotM, Cotillion has some 'bad' memory involving otataral - most likely his own death.

The only way I can see the whole thing working is if they were killed in the room; Dancer took out the Claw, but both died by Laseen's hand, with no magic involved - they used the whole shadow moon thing to escape to get to the deadhouse though, which explains Laseen's anger.

As to why no-one else rose up again, I don't know - I need to re-read, but I'm sure it's partially explained by the first person to get up after he'd been killed. Maybe K and D were already very nearly ascended through their own knowledge and power, and aligned to Shadow, which made the difference...?

EDIT same here, cheers Apt.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 08 December 2008 - 12:38 PM

[the peacemaker]

Spoiler

what if KandD already had acendeet they only needed to get the throne in shadow relm/warren/thingy to become gods? thing 'bout that!

i got a theiori that to acend you need to get to the normal limits of a mortal, then cut off all the ropes to your past and take the last leap (tell me if enyone got enything on this...)

This post has been edited by the peacemaker: 08 December 2008 - 06:21 PM

[The Drum]

Sorry to be a pain but can somebody spoiler the above posts, this info is revealed in NoK, not Bonehunters!!

[Aptorian]

done

[L'oric]

I would like to see Fiddler as an attendant of one of the High Houses but with such a title too many expectations piggy back on it to suit my hopes for Fiddler being a master of his own destiny.

I do not think the Malazan Empire cultivates its Talents all that well. Someone like Fiddler should definately had been under the Tutelage of a Tattersail (say that fast a few times) like deck reader and a user of Mockra from a squad mage at the very least.

We see what can be done with squad mages in RG

Spoiler

learning Denul and Mockra or Meanas as needed

or yet another thing to consider

Spoiler

His magical abilities are even strong enough to have Hedge believing it has rubbed off on him to the point where Hedge can feel where Fiddler is and what he is doing.

Sincerely

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Yeah but we know that during Laseen time talented people were hunted off. So Fiddler had good reasons to stay low and not say anything about his abilities

[L'oric]

Bauchelain the Evil, on Feb 28 2009, 12:10 PM, said:

Yeah but we know that during Laseen time talented people were hunted off. So Fiddler had good reasons to stay low and not say anything about his abilities

The claw didn't do so well in the Bridgeburners and the 2nd Army, but I understand your point seeing as I always tend to think the glass is half empty with Laseen filling it.

[Barid]

Okay, wto thoughts to the arguements going on here. I beleive it is said in TtH that self preservation caused Kellenved and Dancer to abandon the Malazan throne: First Throne, Imperial Throne, AND Throne of shadow is two more thrones than anyone else gets. Also, and heres which book i'm fuzzy on, one of the T'lan Imass states that the First Throne is not vacant.

Spoiler

And toward the end of Reapers Gale, Fid goes all silvery. What was that about? Side effect of the Beakosity of the event? Fiddler Ascending? Fiddler Keeping Fiddler alive? And the whole seeing through everyone, like gelser's insides and odd lack there of? RG pg. 691 to pg. "To see a Malazan- now transformed into an apparition of white..." Granted, seems to me that eveyone in the Marines attentendant got that, but it also seems that Fiddler saw a hell of a lot more and actually GLOWED.

Just wanted to know if I'm the only one who saw signifcance in Fiddler being so paramount in what other characters saw, focal if you will.

[Aptorian]

Spoiler

The whitening effect of Beaks ritual will wear off according to Erikson. Not sure if it will have any other effects on the soldiers though.

You saw the effect through Fids POV, most likely they all saw the same.

Again, Fiddler isn't anything more than a Sapper with a sixth sense and an affinity for the deck. Lots of people have that.

[HoosierDaddy]

Piss: This is the TBH forum.

Fiddler is a BB. Once he "dies" he will ascend as has all the other BB's.

Spoiler

Besides that, yes it is all "Beakiosity" as you put it. Beak's candle burning of doom saved everybody else while, somehow purifying all of them from the "light' of all his warrens being lit and sucking every bit of magic out of the ground that had existed there.

Edit: Hooray for differences! I'm probably wrong!

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 10 March 2009 - 09:57 AM

[Lisheo]

This is the Bonehunters forum, careful of spoilers people.

[coltainereborn]

Back to the topic of who Fiddler is.....

It seems a lot of people want to attribute him a title and attach him to a house so I will do the same.


I can't remember exactly where, but wasn't it mentioned that not only was he a mason, but he built crypts(or barrows).
Although this may have been referring to Whiskey Jack, because they were both masons at one time- if someone could straiten this out for me that would be good.

But i'm going on the assumption it was Fid, and given his talent for survival where most others are dead, I would say he could be(even unknowingly) Mason of High House Death.

[Stradivarius]

Spoiler

i'm sure that when fid lay down his super cussar explosion the cirular thingi that all the other sappers in the bone hunters were in awe saying they'd heard about one but never seen one. surely that indicates that fid is at the top of his game and one if not the best sapper left alive?

and with k and d assending surly asumes they are dead as no one could survive such a greatr fall. hmmm except possibly k and d!

strad

[coltainereborn]

Adjutant Stormy, on Jun 16 2008, 08:02 PM, said:

Mr.Warren;331182 said:

wasn't there some mention of Fiddler being a mason like Whiskeyjack?
only he was real crap at being a mason.....
which leads me to think that WJ might be the mason for high house of death, due to hoods involvement of his life/death
[a speculation that probably already has been voiced no doubt, but still]

But the idea of fid being the soldier of high house life does seem like an interesting concept, and along those lines do you think Leoman might become champion for high house of life then too? - oh sure lots of reasons why he wouldn't be good for the job, but in the interest in plot twisting it could happen.

If you look in the Dramatis Personae for your latest Malazan novel of choice, I believe that it puts WJ as confirmed Mason of Death. I don't have mine on hand (I am at work :S).

thanks stormy, I haven't been able to read anything since TTH, and I may have skipped it. But that makes a lot more sense than Fid anyway. I really think he is more along the lines of Unaligned than belonging to one house or another.

Maybe some more food for thought, Moranth Munitions play a huge role in the Malazan military, and they completely remade the Sappers that used them. Convergance is a big theme in SE's work, power draws power, so it is interesting that a new model of the way military should work, should meet up with a new chemical technology. Anyway, it serves to make an (at best) average soldier into a lean mean killing machine, capable of facing down tha baddest of baddies.

All hail Fiddler-King of the sappers

[beru]

Stradivarius, on Jun 4 2009, 09:35 PM, said:

Spoiler

i'm sure that when fid lay down his super cussar explosion the cirular thingi that all the other sappers in the bone hunters were in awe saying they'd heard about one but never seen one. surely that indicates that fid is at the top of his game and one if not the best sapper left alive?

and with k and d assending surly asumes they are dead as no one could survive such a greatr fall. hmmm except possibly k and d!

strad

its more a line than sirkle and yes he is the best alive...

Spoiler

untill hege ressurects the he shaares the first place