[HoosierDaddy]

Terez, on Aug 5 2009, 05:40 AM, said:

Been debating Rand's death over at Theoryland. The Aelfinn said he will die. Min said he will die. Everything is obviously tied up in Rand's blood being shed on the rocks and all. Why do people keep insisting he's not going to die? I suppose there's a chance he'll be resurrected, but we know he has to die.

I dread the body-swapping possibility though. But I have hope it won't go down quite like everyone seems to think it will. One thing seems clear, though - the last words Rand hears before he dies will be "I have won again, Lews Therin."

You evil woman, you know that what I was saying about Rand's power was legit. It comes straight from years and years and years, of WoT debate as well as the "Encyclopedia" type thing that I had owned. What with the passages of information during the AoL and information on the Trolloc Wars and Second War of the Dragon Reborn under "Guaire Amsalan???" or something like that. You know what I mean.

[Cougar]

If this is just a normal turn of the wheel, why is he refered to as Lews Therin, surely he's had loads of names, in fact an infinite number?

It seems obvious that he has too die, but is it too obvious? Is it a double bluff? To make you think he won't but he will? It'll be interesting to see how this is handled as I'd imagine it will be tough to do without it seeming cliched.

I mean you don't want it going down like Potter do you.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

At the end of the series, Rand will not be dead. A "the prophecy doesn't mean exactly what i have been leading you to think for the past 13 books" cliche is exactly RJ's style.

[Terez]

Cougar, on Aug 5 2009, 04:57 AM, said:

If this is just a normal turn of the wheel, why is he refered to as Lews Therin, surely he's had loads of names, in fact an infinite number?

Sure, but Ba'alzamon/Ishamael/Moridin only remembers the one, and it was his voice that Rand heard at the end of every variation of his life in the portal stone experience. Also, it appears as though the Heroes go by their last incarnations (both in appearance and name) while in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Cougar said:

It seems obvious that he has too die, but is it too obvious? Is it a double bluff? To make you think he won't but he will? It'll be interesting to see how this is handled as I'd imagine it will be tough to do without it seeming cliched.

I mean you don't want it going down like Potter do you.

I think the ideal/most logical scenario would be for him to die before the Last Battle is won, and then be called back (briefly) via the Horn. After all, we know he is a Hero, and we know he has to die, and we know that the Horn has to be found before the Last Battle so obviously it is important to the Last Battle. As Birgitte says, Heroes 'are not dead as others are dead', because their roles are eternal. If Rand doesn't die (the necessary sacrifice), he won't defeat the Dark One, and the Wheel will be destroyed/remade by the Dark One. Rebirth and eternal Heroes go out the window if that happens...so, 'to live' could simply refer to Rand's continued existence as an eternal soul. After all, Rand's question to the Aelfinn, "How do I win and survive the Last Battle" was a tricky one, demanding something that was apparently not in the plan (not to mention touching the Shadow). But we know that the Aelfinn speak the truth, so "to live, you must die" doesn't seem to be fulfilled by a faked death (as Egwene's paper puppet dream suggests), or by body-switching and Moridin dying in Rand's body (because that wouldn't be Rand), and definitely not by the ever-popular 'Lews Therin will die and Rand will live'. Because Lews Therin already died, and was reborn as Rand.

[Terez]

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on Aug 5 2009, 05:01 AM, said:

At the end of the series, Rand will not be dead. A "the prophecy doesn't mean exactly what i have been leading you to think for the past 13 books" cliche is exactly RJ's style.

It's hard to argue with that, seeing as how RJ doesn't kill any major characters off. But I hope you are wrong. Not about prophecies not being what they seem - I don't have a problem with that (it's part of what makes it interesting to discuss). Just about Rand being dead at the end of the series.

[Cougar]

Terez, on Aug 5 2009, 11:11 AM, said:

Sure, but Ba'alzamon/Ishamael/Moridin only remembers the one, and it was his voice that Rand heard at the end of every variation of his life in the portal stone experience. Also, it appears as though the Heroes go by their last incarnations (both in appearance and name) while in Tel'aran'rhiod...

I think the ideal/most logical scenario would be for him to die before the Last Battle is won, and then be called back (briefly) via the Horn. .

Course, that seems logical, plus if the voice called him anything else he'd be like "who is that voice talking to?" say,'I win again, Chuck Norris.'

I like that idea of the horn, seems very reasonable and would avoid the ending seeming like RJ had run out of ideas and gone for something cliched.

[Skywalker]

Wasn't the whole "we have fought each other thousands of times, LTM, a thousand times a thousand" thing Ishamael/ Moridin's theory alone?

No one else has ever thought it was the case. (RJ's omniscient narration says stuff like "in an age some call the third age" etc. but he never says everything happens exactly the same way every time.) Also, wasn't it just a case of Ishamael being cuckoo crazy when he believed it?

IIRC someone (one of the forsaken) actually laughed at that theory. What's more, Moridin has been notably silent on the subject of how Rand is "his old foe LTM" since he came back to life. Wasn't that whole thing a delusion of grandeur along the lines of calling himself Ba'alzamon etc?

[Terez]

Cougar, on Aug 5 2009, 05:21 AM, said:

I like that idea of the horn, seems very reasonable and would avoid the ending seeming like RJ had run out of ideas and gone for something cliched.

I like the idea too, since as far as I know, I came up with that theory, but the general run of WoT fans tends to be very opposed to the idea. Some are opposed because they don't want Rand to die (there are a surprising number those people). Some are opposed because they think that Rand should be able to do everything that is needed to win the Last Battle while he is alive, and they don't like the idea of him doing anything important as an immortal. But the bit that leads me to believe Rand will be called back by the Horn is mainly the idea, introduced by Herid Fel, that the sealing of the Dark One's prison - properly, the way the Creator made it in the first place - is something that can't be accomplished by a mere human, even the Dragon Reborn. IMO, there's a lot more to the Last Battle than sealing the prison, so I wouldn't be disappointed if that detail was handled by an immortal Rand, rather than a mortal Rand. It would seem to me to be a proper justification for the creation of the Horn in the first place - its currently apparent justification is pretty weak.

[Terez]

Skywalker, on Aug 5 2009, 05:52 AM, said:

Wasn't the whole "we have fought each other thousands of times, LTM, a thousand times a thousand" thing Ishamael/ Moridin's theory alone?

Yeah, and RJ said, specifically in reference to that quote, "And you believed him?"

It's made pretty clear in the prologue of The Path of Daggers that Moridin does not remember that far back. But Moridin feels that the fight between himself and the Dragon soul is a personal one, and the prophecies indicate that it will pretty much end up that way (Min's 'you and another man' viewing is an example). Rand remembers all sorts of things about the Forsaken, but as much as he thinks about those memories, he never thinks about Ishamael. Cause this was the guy that made the end of his life so traumatic. This was the guy that made him remember what he had done before he died. If not for that, Rand wouldn't be plagued with memories of Ilyena, and he'd probably be in much better shape mentally.

We don't know that Ishamael's role is eternal, tied to his soul, but we do know that the roles of the Heroes are eternal.

[Skywalker]

Thanks Terez... you're a real live encyclopaedia!

I think I need to re-read WoT before the next book comes out... really don't know if I would have the time or patience though

[Cause]

IS there not a prophecy that goes along the lines. The last battle done, but the world not done with battle. Three women in a boat the lion, the spear and the one who sees with a man who is dead yet lives. The guardians balance the servants. So it seems obvious that somehow he will survive tairmon gaidon. I cant remeber why but I also seem to think it implied they were travelling to seanchan.

Also I dont think he can die and be summoned by the horn. Remeber in book two how his battle with moridan was directly mirrored by the heroes of the horn. When he was winning they were invincible when he was losing they lost ground. I expect TG to be something similiar. Except he will have to face the shadows personal Myrdraal instead likely.

Course I wont lie I have myself thought of the lews therin will die and he will live angle. Meaning that he gets over his madness accepts his past lifes and becomes the dragon. Also is there not a past life that lews therin talks to as well. Perhaps add infinitum? All his past lives are the dragon.

Terez why would rand hear the shadow gloat that he has won again. That would mean he is free? Which obviously cant be. cause than we would have read over a million of words to lead t the biggest dissapointment ever in the history of stories.

@Skywalker-I dont know if morridan has battled rand a thousand times but I think we are supposed to believe that rand has battled the shadow a thousand times. He is the lights champion. Perhaps morridan is the dark ones. But it does not seem his style to have just one soul as his eternal champion. Also I dont think the world is excactly circular with things happening excactly the same way everytime. Yet I believe the circle of the world locks away the shadow evolves to the point that it forgets the old myths abolishes war and than somehow he breaks free and kills civilization and it starts all over again does..

[Terez]

Cause, on Aug 5 2009, 06:11 AM, said:

IS there not a prophecy that goes along the lines. The last battle done, but the world not done with battle. Three women in a boat the lion, the spear and the one who sees with a man who is dead yet lives. The guardians balance the servants. So it seems obvious that somehow he will survive tairmon gaidon. I cant remeber why but I also seem to think it implied they were travelling to seanchan.

Yeah, you're thinking of Nicola's Foretelling (which is backed up by a dream the Wise Ones had, same book). But it wasn't implied they were traveling to Seanchan - in fact, RJ has made it clear that they will not be - and it also doesn't mean that Rand survives - I already mentioned what Birgitte said about Heroes not being 'dead as others are dead'. So yeah, he will 'somehow' survive, but he will also die (that much is clear), so whether he is going to be resurrected or merely 'alive' by nature of being an eternal Hero or something else is unclear.

Cause said:

Also I dont think he can die and be summoned by the horn. Remeber in book two how his battle with moridan was directly mirrored by the heroes of the horn. When he was winning they were invincible when he was losing they lost ground. I expect TG to be something similiar. Except he will have to face the shadows personal Myrdraal instead likely.

Perhaps - one thing that was made clear at Falme is that Rand is the default leader of the Heroes. He leads them while he's 'dead', and if he's alive when the Horn is used, then he leads them there too. They didn't ask Mat who they were supposed to fight - they asked Rand. RJ even said that, if Rand were on the opposite side of the battle where the Horn was used, that there would be a rift in the Pattern as a result.

Cause said:

Course I wont lie I have myself thought of the lews therin will die and he will live angle. Meaning that he gets over his madness accepts his past lifes and becomes the dragon. Also is there not a past life that lews therin talks to as well. Perhaps add infinitum? All his past lives are the dragon.

Well, I don't believe that Lews Therin and Rand are separate - I believe that the 'voice' is a delusion created subconsciously by Rand as a means of dealing with memories he wants to deny - but Lews Therin is not talking to another past life. You're probably thinking of the fact that Rand sees Moridin's face when he has the dizzy sickness. Before we knew what was going on, Lews Therin made a couple of comments about another guy, and the 'another past life' thing was a theory that attempted to explain those comments. It's been debunked since Knife of Dreams.

Cause said:

Terez why would rand hear the shadow gloat that he has won again. That would mean he is free? Which obviously cant be. cause than we would have read over a million of words to lead t the biggest dissapointment ever in the history of stories.

I didn't say 'the shadow' would gloat - Moridin, specifically. If Moridin manages to kill Rand, he'll probably think he's won. Doesn't make it true, though.

The idea is that everyone in the world knows that Rand is their only hope. And then there's the fact that everyone sort of takes his role in the thing for granted - they know they need him but he makes them uncomfortable, and they resent his moves to unite Randland, seeing him as a conqueror. But anyway, if Rand dies, and the Shadow is still not defeated, then everyone will think that their only hope of victory is gone. So, they'll have to keep on fighting against the Shadow anyway. It would be nice and dramatic.

The prophecies don't say exactly what Rand is expected to do, other than the blood on the rocks thing, so it seems clear that only that sacrifice is required (parallel to Christianity). The people don't know that, though. They expect Rand to tidy everything up before he dies, and it's not likely, IMO, to happen that way. Perrin and Mat, via the colors thing, will know exactly when Rand dies, and they in particular I think will play huge parts in the Last Battle POV spread. I imagine they will be quite distraught.

Cause said:

@Skywalker-I dont know if morridan has battled rand a thousand times but I think we are supposed to believe that rand has battled the shadow a thousand times. He is the lights champion. Perhaps morridan is the dark ones. But it does not seem his style to have just one soul as his eternal champion. Also I dont think the world is excactly circular with things happening excactly the same way everytime. Yet I believe the circle of the world locks away the shadow evolves to the point that it forgets the old myths abolishes war and than somehow he breaks free and kills civilization and it starts all over again does..

It's not exactly circular - the pattern of the Ages is pretty much set, but the details during each Turning vary widely. RJ described it as two different tapestries that look the same from a distance, but upon closer observation are very different.

[Cause]

If Rand is summoned by the horn and the battle is won why is he still alive on a boat with his harem? Also it sounds from the prophecy that there could be a lot of story left. I would be sad if rand were not around. I hate the books when he is not in them. If I was unable to just go to the store and buy book 4 the day after i was done, book 3 would have made me so mad.

You think its morridins voice he hears in all those other lives when he dies? I always thought it must be the dark ones. How can Morridin speak in his mind. So that other personality who is a destroyer in rands head you think that is just morridin? Why if I can ask? Also what about semarhage (The sadistic forsaken) saying that there were cases of real madness in the age of legends. Was she lying?

Do you think Mat and Perrin are heroes of the horn? DO you think they will become?

TG better be the most exciting battle ever. It has such potential. Talking like this makesme sad. WoT had the potential to be great, it declined as it got longer (my opinion obviously) and now I will be forced to wonder f thats the ending RJ would have written or inteded. Still the fact that I still talk about it says something.

[Terez]

Cause, on Aug 5 2009, 07:11 AM, said:

If Rand is summoned by the horn and the battle is won why is he still alive on a boat with his harem?

He's dead on the boat.

Cause said:

Also it sounds from the prophecy that there could be a lot of story left.

Yeah, I outlined what I thought that would be in my previous post.

Cause said:

I would be sad if rand were not around.

So will everyone else. That's the point.

Cause said:

You think its morridins voice he hears in all those other lives when he dies?

Ba'alzamon, specifically.

Cause said:

I always thought it must be the dark ones. How can Morridin speak in his mind.

Moridin can't. He will be saying it for real when it actually happens.

Cause said:

So that other personality who is a destroyer in rands head you think that is just morridin? Why if I can ask?

Because it was revealed to be Moridin in Knife of Dreams. I'm too lazy to find the quote right now. Rand sees the face clearly and long enough to recognize it for the first time (he doesn't know who Moridin is but he met him in Shadar Logoth).

Cause said:

Also what about semarhage (The sadistic forsaken) saying that there were cases of real madness in the age of legends. Was she lying?

She might not have been entirely truthful - hard to say. But I'm not sure why you're asking me this.

Cause said:

Do you think Mat and Perrin are heroes of the horn? DO you think they will become?

I think they probably will be after this life, but I don't think they were already, or they would have been recognized at Falme. Birgitte doesn't think of Mat as being one of them.

[Cougar]

WRT the nature of time in the WoT universe I always assumed time was still linear in the sense that we understood it but that the wheel was certain events and souls that repeated themselves in a sequence as if these were ficed points on the rim of the wheel: like a wheel rolling along a road, the wheel is the pattern, the events, the way things will shape u,p but the road is time itself.

I had a go at drawing it awhile ago but it, isn't easy to read, the key points would be Dragon Soul is Born 1st Time (LTT), Hole Drilled in DO's Prison and Dragon Soul Reborn (Rand)

I've never been able to construct it any other way really.

Attached File(s)

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This post has been edited by Cougar: 05 August 2009 - 01:28 PM

[MTS]

Wow, that's a great diagram Cougar. Seems to be pretty much spot on, and was how I envisioned the "Wheel of Time" concept as well.

[Cause]

I like your analogy cougar. Never thought about it in that way but yes thats how I see it as well. Except I dont think the dragon reborn concept and prophecy is more unique than you imply. I dont picture every cycle that the dragon has a half victory and than is reborn to finish it. I like to think that its one of the varying details that can happen.

I imagine that if the women had stood with lews therin he could have sealed the bore and not all men would have been tainted and instead of the patch he put in place it would have been a proper seal. Since the women did not help it was only a partial victory. The shadow could still touch the world a little and is breaking free early. Forcing the need for the dragon to be reborn and save the world again.

Whats that one point read by the way. Mograines soul reborn???

This post has been edited by Cause: 05 August 2009 - 04:55 PM

[murphy72]

Terez, on Aug 5 2009, 02:40 AM, said:

Been debating Rand's death over at Theoryland. The Aelfinn said he will die. Min said he will die. Everything is obviously tied up in Rand's blood being shed on the rocks and all. Why do people keep insisting he's not going to die? I suppose there's a chance he'll be resurrected, but we know he has to die.

I dread the body-swapping possibility though. But I have hope it won't go down quite like everyone seems to think it will. One thing seems clear, though - the last words Rand hears before he dies will be "I have won again, Lews Therin."

Didn't the Aelfinn say, "to live, you must die." I took that to mean that Rand would survive and Lews would die.

[Cougar]

Cause, on Aug 5 2009, 04:53 PM, said:

I like your analogy cougar. Never thought about it in that way but yes thats how I see it as well. Except I dont think the dragon reborn concept and prophecy is more unique than you imply. I dont picture every cycle that the dragon has a half victory and than is reborn to finish it. I like to think that its one of the varying details that can happen.

I imagine that if the women had stood with lews therin he could have sealed the bore and not all men would have been tainted and instead of the patch he put in place it would have been a proper seal. Since the women did not help it was only a partial victory. The shadow could still touch the world a little and is breaking free early. Forcing the need for the dragon to be reborn and save the world again.

Whats that one point read by the way. Mograines soul reborn???

Yeah, I suppose that could be right, perhaps there are turning where the poor fucker dies a load of times. I imagine that there are certain fixed things that have to happen and have to be in place etc. I've heard it said by Terez that the DO must be re-imprisoned at a certain point or he'll remake the patern so I always assumed that there was a kind of 'reset point' where the wheel did a full turn.

That marker says 'Moiraine's soul reborn', in the original version I did more explanation and the idea was that there could be certain individuals who were not Taveren who might be necessary to allow the Dragon soul to complete its task. The others bits are Dragon soul dies and seals prison, Arthur Hawkwing character Spins out, "Chaos" and a period denoting now saying "No Magic"

This post has been edited by Cougar: 05 August 2009 - 05:54 PM

[Grief]

Isn't there a problem though-I remember reading at one point that the reason the book guy(I forget his name-he dies, Min tries to carry on his work I believe?) believes that the Dragon Reborn isn't back to the beginning of the wheel is that the Dragons seal is not the same as the Creators-so surely at some point the creator needs to re-imprison the Dark One before LTT is reborn-which would surely require the Dark One to break free first.

Ofc there are other inconsistencies here:

If this is true-and the Dark One must break free-then surely the Creator Creating the World must be part of the wheel-which it can't be, or wouldn't the creator creating the wheel be part-which makes no sense.

I may have my memory wrong-been a while since I read the books.