[Terez]

murphy72, on Aug 5 2009, 12:26 PM, said:

Didn't the Aelfinn say, "to live, you must die." I took that to mean that Rand would survive and Lews would die.

A lot of people took it to mean that, partly because of the 'you and another man' viewing of Min's, which Rand assumed was about Lews Therin (it was made fairly clear in Knife of Dreams that it was about Moridin). But since Rand IS Lews Therin, it's hard to see how one could die without the other. They are the same soul, in the same body, with the same mind. So I'd be willing to put money on this not happening. Yeah, Rand will resolve his Lews Therin issues, but resolving them won't fulfill the prophecies of his death.

Cause said:

I imagine that if the women had stood with lews therin he could have sealed the bore and not all men would have been tainted and instead of the patch he put in place it would have been a proper seal. Since the women did not help it was only a partial victory. The shadow could still touch the world a little and is breaking free early. Forcing the need for the dragon to be reborn and save the world again.

RJ said that, if the women had been with Lews Therin at the Strike, the only result would have been saidar tainted, in addition to saidin.

Grief said:

Isn't there a problem though-I remember reading at one point that the reason the book guy(I forget his name-he dies, Min tries to carry on his work I believe?) believes that the Dragon Reborn isn't back to the beginning of the wheel is that the Dragons seal is not the same as the Creators-so surely at some point the creator needs to re-imprison the Dark One before LTT is reborn-which would surely require the Dark One to break free first.

Your writing is near-incomprehensible, but I'll try to sort it out....the Dark One doesn't need to be free, necessarily, but the remnants of Lews Therin's seal do have to be cleared away before the prison can be sealed properly. Since the Dark One wasn't free when Lews Therin sealed the Bore, he won't be free this time either - the seal merely acted to shield the thinness in the Pattern that allows the Dark One to be sensed and communicated with, that allows the Dark One to touch the world actively. Even with Lews Therin's seals, the Dark One could still passively touch the world (hence the fact that the Blight never disappeared).

Cougar - I've always looked at it sort of like a spiral, rather than a circle. Nice drawing.

[Cause]

Terez, on Aug 5 2009, 09:43 PM, said:

Cause said:

I imagine that if the women had stood with lews therin he could have sealed the bore and not all men would have been tainted and instead of the patch he put in place it would have been a proper seal. Since the women did not help it was only a partial victory. The shadow could still touch the world a little and is breaking free early. Forcing the need for the dragon to be reborn and save the world again.

RJ said that, if the women had been with Lews Therin at the Strike, the only result would have been saidar tainted, in addition to saidin.

What? This makes me angry. The womens plan to rely on the chodan kel obviousl ywould not have worked. I thouht one of the major themes of the book was men working with women were infinitly more powerfull than alone. I figured that would be the big difference at TG that rand would finally bring women and men toghether. Also why wont the DO just taint the powers agin this time

[HoosierDaddy]

Rand ain't going to be dead at the end of the series, and that's that. Sorry, Terez.

[James Hetfield]

Ok, can i throw in a wild and crazy theory?

The whole series Rand has been getting his ass kicked one way or another. Two wounds in his side that are supposedly painful as hell, lost an eye and an arm. In whole, he is a wreck.
His body is falling apart. Maybe going insane. Debatable. Seems like RJ is killing him slowly for a reason.

While in Shadar Logoth a stream of his balefire and Moridins? crossed paths. He keeps getting images of Moridin's and for some reason they are connected.

IIRC, RJ goes into detail about how strong and handsome Moridin is.

My theory, is that during the last battle the two will be in a power struggle, mostly mentally, to gain control of these visions and mastery of themselves. Their souls are going to shift bodies. Rand is Moridind, vice versa. That is why Perring needs to be at his side at the last battle. Perrin is going to "smell" this change and direct everone accordingly. Perrin probably will kill Mordin himself, being at Rands side.

Everyone thinks the Dragon Reborn is dead, Rand has a news body. He tells his baby's momas, Perrin knows, Mat and a few others. Goes and lives a long, disturbing life in another body.

Oh and he incinerates Shayol Ghul with the biggest balefire ever!! Removing the influnce he has had on the world forever, past and future. Perhaps only he will realize what has happened, leaving a completely differnt world in its wake.

Flawed, but possible?

[Cougar]

I'm pretty sure that RJ has said this turning of the wheel is no different to any other ie: the DO will have his prison resealed, Rand won't destroy the DO or remove the DO from the pattern for eternity. If this was possible then surely the creator would have done it at the moment of creation rather than just locking him in some otherworldly hole.

[HoosierDaddy]

Cougar, on Aug 5 2009, 04:20 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure that RJ has said this turning of the wheel is no different to any other ie: the DO will have his prison resealed, Rand won't destroy the DO or remove the DO from the pattern for eternity. If this was possible then surely the creator would have done it at the moment of creation rather than just locking him in some otherworldly hole.

Correct. But, authors do sometimes mislead. (Not in this instance, though). RAFO!

[Terez]

@Hetfield - that's everyone's favorite theory. I hate it. If it happens, I will cry. RJ also said that it's impossible to balefire the Dark One - the amount necessary would destroy the world.

@Cause - RJ said that it was only the circumstances at the time of the Strike that allowed the Dark One to taint saidin - it's not the sort of thing that he can just up and do whenever.

[HoosierDaddy]

I.E. because only Lews 100 Companions (iirc) took part in the strike he was able to do so for some reason.

[Terez]

Nah, he didn't give any details like that, not in reference to the Dark One's ability to do what he did. I guess I can stop being lazy and actually go get the quote...

*grumbles*

RJ said:

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

Q: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not re-taint saidin?

RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?

RJ said:

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

Q: Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

RJ: Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals. In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this. As I pointed out in something…I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul…there was a great division at the time – I don’t know if all of you have read it…or have none of you read it?

Qs: Yes, yes.

RJ: Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the….and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” [It was actually the “Fateful Concord” – Terez], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted. And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint. But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.

[HoosierDaddy]

I'm unsure as to whether you are disagreeing with me, Terez, but you well know that the Companions were all male. Due to said strife within the Aes Sedai. Ye olde T'amyrlin had only guys in his crew of Companions, and they were the ones that tore the world apart after the sealing.

[Terez]

Seemed like you were suggesting that the fact that they were all men is what enabled the Dark One to taint saidin. And though that was why he tainted ONLY saidin, it's not what made him able to taint it in the first place, because it's not like he can just taint saidin every time a male channeler attacks.

[HoosierDaddy]

Ah, well, we have no idea what allowed the DO to taint the OP. However, the notion of both sides being tainted.... is interesting.

[Cause]

Thats abysmall. So saidin was tainted because it would make for a good story is what he is really saying if you ask me. Lews therin did the write thing but got screwed. Whats worse the women who by all reason should have supported him but did not are actually in he right because if they did te world would have exploded in the breaking

[Wry]

Wait, you'd prefer if his books were even more simplistic and everyone who was right always lived happily ever after? How can you enoy malaz books then?

Anyway, like Terez i'd be very disappointed if rand doesn't actually die, would be a cowardly bit of writing that.

[HoosierDaddy]

Wry, on Aug 5 2009, 06:19 PM, said:

Wait, you'd prefer if his books were even more simplistic and everyone who was right always lived happily ever after? How can you enoy malaz books then?

Anyway, like Terez i'd be very disappointed if rand doesn't actually die, would be a cowardly bit of writing that.

I don't think it is cowardly if that's how he's planned it from the get go. Terez might be right. However, I can't help but think that someone who bemoans his eventual death over and over and over and over again like Rand does, as well as have so many "clues" about his death, is actually going to die. Read that as red-herring + red-herring + red-herring ad infintum = Not going to happen.

[Cougar]

They should have got Goodkind to write the last scene, it would have been nice to see Rand get raped before the final battle.

[Werthead]

HoosierDaddy, on Aug 5 2009, 10:37 PM, said:

I'm unsure as to whether you are disagreeing with me, Terez, but you well know that the Companions were all male. Due to said strife within the Aes Sedai. Ye olde T'amyrlin had only guys in his crew of Companions, and they were the ones that tore the world apart after the sealing.

Tamyrlin? That's the name I believe of the founder of the Aes Sedai (if not the first person in the world who learned to channel the One Power, I don't think RJ was clear on this point) in the First Age. Lews Therin wore the Ring of Tamyrlin as part of his rank, but 'Tamyrlin' wasn't a title. It became one in the Third Age due to corruptions of history and myth through the Breaking.

Quote

Whats worse the women who by all reason should have supported him but did not are actually in he right because if they did te world would have exploded in the breaking

Unless of course if the women had been there as well, the joint use of both parts of the One Power would have resealed the prison as good as new and the whole 'both parts would have been tainted' thing is a feint by RJ. It strikes to the core of the series' themes that men and women working together are needed to really do the big stuff in the world, and the absence of the womean at the creation of the Seven Seals was very likely a mistake.

[HoosierDaddy]

I thought T'amyrlin was the title of the leader of the association. Let Terez sort it out.

[Terez]

Wert is right - he might not be quite as much of a fanboy as I am a fangirl, but when he speaks up about WoT, so far as I've seen, he's usually right.

I just figured I had enough to do with the major errors so I'd let that one slide...

HD said:

I can't help but think that someone who bemoans his eventual death over and over and over and over again like Rand does, as well as have so many "clues" about his death, is actually going to die.

I know what you mean, but at the same time, we've got Min insisting over and over again that he's NOT going to die. Also, if he does die, we know that he will be accessible, more or less, via Tel'aran'rhiod. Technically, it's breaking the rules for Rand to see his women after he's dead, but I got the feeling from Birgitte and Gaidal that it is particularly dangerous for them to interfere with the major events leading up to the Last Battle, when the Pattern is in a flux - not so dangerous to have conjugal visits with your wife(s). With that kind of death waiting for Rand, it seems particularly cheap for him to not die. Hell, if his women get lonely, Mat can blow the freaking Horn!

[Grief]

Terez, on Aug 5 2009, 08:43 PM, said:

Grief said:

Isn't there a problem though-I remember reading at one point that the reason the book guy(I forget his name-he dies, Min tries to carry on his work I believe?) believes that the Dragon Reborn isn't back to the beginning of the wheel is that the Dragons seal is not the same as the Creators-so surely at some point the creator needs to re-imprison the Dark One before LTT is reborn-which would surely require the Dark One to break free first.

Your writing is near-incomprehensible, but I'll try to sort it out....the Dark One doesn't need to be free, necessarily, but the remnants of Lews Therin's seal do have to be cleared away before the prison can be sealed properly. Since the Dark One wasn't free when Lews Therin sealed the Bore, he won't be free this time either - the seal merely acted to shield the thinness in the Pattern that allows the Dark One to be sensed and communicated with, that allows the Dark One to touch the world actively. Even with Lews Therin's seals, the Dark One could still passively touch the world (hence the fact that the Blight never disappeared).

As I said, it's been a while since I read them.

However, what I mean is that:

-The original bore went through the creators seal, this was the time of LTT.
-This was not a Dragons seal(as it is in Rands time-sealed by LTT), it was the creators.
-Rand cannot be at the same spot as LTT in the wheel(not a complete rotation) because when LTT is reborn the bore must have been sealed not by the dragon but by the creator.
-The creator must-at some stage-re-imprison the Dark One/re-seal the bore, before we go back to the start of the wheel.

I could be completely mis-remembering this though.