[Sinisdar Toste]

but he doesn't accept that title. does it make a difference? who knows, rake is powerful enough without being a god.

banaschar and pearls convo in tBH brings some good light to this matter. do gods have an obligation to worshippers just because they are being worshipped or can they by virtue of rejecting godhood, reject all that is being projected onto them by their worshippers? (notice, worshippers, not followers, which as Tarr demonstrated is a key difference)

[amphibian]

Sinisdar Toste;277032 said:

but he doesn't accept that title. does it make a difference? who knows, rake is powerful enough without being a god.

banaschar and pearls convo in tBH brings some good light to this matter. do gods have an obligation to worshippers just because they are being worshipped or can they by virtue of rejecting godhood, reject all that is being projected onto them by their worshippers? (notice, worshippers, not followers, which as Tarr demonstrated is a key difference)

The storylines of Heboric and Fener and the Errant and Feather Witch, the really, really messed-up girl, pointed out to us that worshippers have suction on their gods too. It's a two-way street, even if the god doesn't really accept the relationship like the Errant and Anomander.

[Set'alahd Crool]

Tarr;276971 said:

Note: This is for all races

Togg and Fandery for ay

Eres for Eres'al

In MoI We're told that Togg and Fandaray are ascended beasts. The first beings to ascend by walking with mortals - I assume these mortals were either Imass or Eres.
This suggests that the two wolves of winter were once just wolves(or Ay), unascended. That Togg thinks the other Elder Gods are mere pups can be ignored, since we know that the EGs existed long before they came to Wu. It just means Togg hadn't met them before this.

As for Eres, I can't recall anything in any of the books to suggest that the eres'al worshipped her. Or came from her, for that matter. The only worship attributed to them as a race seems to be of death, and maybe shadow(s) as some percieved manifestation thereof.
Eres herself seems more likely to have been worshipped first by the early Imass as the personification of the Eres'al, similar to the Errant/FA connection described by Bugg.

[Tiger_sword]

Tarr;276971 said:

The k'chains gods were their matrons who were their parent

Still have to deal with the parentage of the Matrons. Wouldn't it be crazy if they were MD first children!

I know that was wild speculation but I really dont like the "elder gods were the first children of MD" theory. How can someone give birth to elemental forces... doesn't make sense.

[Set'alahd Crool]

Tiger_sword;277137 said:

How can someone give birth to elemental forces... doesn't make sense.

My sister-in-law did. You wouldn't believe what the little demoness can achieve in the time it takes to pick up her younger sister.

[The Crippled God]

Toblakai don't have elder god, they are Gods themselves Otherwise I don't think that Rake is a Deity, so Taist Andii are NOT his race, he is just their leader.
Still, I haven't red RG so may be I'll wait until I make more statements about the gods and their children

[Abyss]

I don't mean to obnoxiously dissect your post, so take this in the spirit of discussion - there's more to this...

Tarr;276971 said:

...
The k'chains gods were their matrons who were their parent

Not quite. We learn in RG that the Matrons seize control of the immature KC as they emerge from the sea - it's more of a slave relationship than a worshipping the god one.

Quote

MD and FL for the tiste

The Andii were quite disgusted with the whole notion of the Light, and we know nothing about how the Liosan feel about MD.

Quote

Togg and Fandery for ay

Or the Imass, Eres or early humans. Do wolves have gods? CAN wolves have gods? No one's ever suggested Fener is the god of pigs, and as animals likely to have gods go, i figure there is a whole list ahead of swine, no matter how smart. More likely early humans/imass/eres worshipped a particular aspect of nature which translated to Togg and Fandertail.

Quote

Eres for Eres'al

She's not a god. She's a particular member of the race who knows how to time travel and shag.

Quote

Kilmandaros for Forkul Assail

Or the Imass. Or the T3. Or all three.

Quote

Tiam for dragons

Tiam is the Mother of Dragons, ref'ing Menandore/Sukul/Sheltie and/or everyone who drank her blood in a more figurative sense.

We know nothing about how the pureblood Eleint see her.
Plus, is she a soletaken Elder God with a draconic form, or a soletaken dragon with an elder god form. How did she get that way? If it was from drinking the blod of a pureblood, whouldn't she be worshipping them, so to speak...

Quote

Above we have repeated examples of races which are quoted as being the children of elder gods...nobody claims to have been there, not even the andii who believe themselves to be the "first" children or the elder gods).

Udinaas in RG challenges pretty much the entire MD Tiste origin story.

I have speculated before that all or most gods actually exist because early humans or other races worshipped them into existance. We've seen the effect 'belief' can have on a pushing a human towards ascension (see: Coltaine) - so if an entire race of cavemen sitting in their caves shivers a lot and thinks of the winter as a frigid entity of nastiness.... eventually poof, you have Sister of Cold Nights. Thousands of primitive neaderthal types take up residence on coastlines and start fishing and a few hundred a year die in storms.... poof, Mael. A particularly nasty bunch decide that sacrificing other tribes is a handy way to inspire fear and get tribute from those weaker than themselves.... poof, Krul.

- Abyss, ....poof... hungry...

[The Crippled God]

Well, if SE uses the exact way the "gods" shown up in our world by belief and than poff....I can assume that you are right... BUT!!! How come K'rul is the God of Warents, and be created by men??? An one more thing...I remember K'rul been mantioned as the Wanderer in the time before the world existed....

[Tiger_sword]

The Crippled God;277251 said:

Well, if SE uses the exact way the "gods" shown up in our world by belief and than poff....I can assume that you are right... BUT!!! How come K'rul is the God of Warents, and be created by men??? An one more thing...I remember K'rul been mantioned as the Wanderer in the time before the world existed....

K'rul is a personification of magic (or rather the other way round perhaps?) he could have been "poofed" into existance (if we are going to take this route) by the belief in magic or unexplained goings on. Of course we know that before there were warrens there were holds and before that wandering. Just as before K'rul created the warrens magic wandered, so too did he. Its just that there was no one around to personify him so he stayed elemental, something not human-like but just a force of nature.

[Mentalist]

Set said:

In MoI We're told that Togg and Fandaray are ascended beasts. The first beings to ascend by walking with mortals - I assume these mortals were either Imass or Eres.

quotes or it didn't happen

After all, The Degaroth didn't need to be domesticated by the Eres.......

[The Crippled God]

Yep, it actually was the other way around

[Abyss]

Tiger_sword;277302 said:

K'rul is a personification of magic ....

Keep in mind, the thing with Krul and the Dragons (is it just me or does that sound like a 70s progressive heavy metal band?) shaping the warrens didn't happen at the dawn of time. Krul was already around when for whatever reason he decided to shape the warrens - maybe he was tripping on some especially good dehydrated frogs from 7C and it was like "Hey, y'know what, i'm gonna slit my wrists and reshape all those silly Kurald thingies.... you dragons, who wants to get up to some really crazy shit??!!??".

Point being, much as we see Krul in GotM and MoI apparently altering his aspect, that may have not been the first time he did so.


- Abyss, "Hellooooo Darujhistan! Are you ready to rock!?!"...

[Mentalist]

hmm... I always figured the Shaping took lplace soon after the sundering of KE, and then the rest of the unaspected Eleint were herded into the dying SD...

[The Crippled God]

I Think K'rul is much older than than the Taist...As far as I can get it, The warrens (holds or what ever) were shaped looong before the Taist left mother Dark.... What stops K'rul from shaping the magic, while the Andii were unaware of the existence of anything else than MD.....?

[Mentalist]

Well, the other part of K'rul's "Heart" is SD...

SD means Tiam

And the EGs and Tiste soletaken all drank her blood, supposedly together....

plus, according to my pet theory SD is so lifeless in RG, b/c its power is all directed to keep the Path-blood circulating... GotM mentions the "last flight of Dragons into SD", Rake and Killy dealing with all tose ferals when KE was collapsing... leaves me anxius to draw connections..

[Set'alahd Crool]

kud13;277309 said:

quotes or it didn't happen

After all, The Degaroth didn't need to be domesticated by the Eres.......

Quotes will have to wait untill I get back home (probably saturday), but I assure you it was said. Either by Silverfox or by the Destriant of the rededicated Grey Swords.

kud13;277462 said:

Well, the other part of K'rul's "Heart" is SD...

SD means Tiam

And the EGs and Tiste soletaken all drank her blood, supposedly together....

... GotM mentions the "last flight of Dragons into SD"

Firstly, why together? Recall that Tiam dies repeatedly to give birth to soletaken dragons - as we are told in Udinaas' vision of Osserc and 2 of his daughters discussing this very matter in MT - or at least did untill her last time which is apparently more permanent(according to a Featherwitch reading of the tiles). The EGs and Tiste soletaken, and Olar Ethil, could've drank her blood millenia apart from each other, for all we know.

Secondly, the last flight of dragons was pretty much explained during the conversation between Cotillion and the 3 chained dragons as K'rull's last order to the sources of magic to absent themselves from Wu so that magic would be predictable and would obey a set of rules/laws, making it something that could be harnessed in a reliable manner. Or something like that.

[Venerus]

Something in Abyss's post made me think -- SE seems to draw many parallels between generals/military commanders and gods. Troops/worshippers, general/deity. Hm. Dassem is kind of both sides of that coin, isn't he?

Sorry for the interruption, back to your regularly scheduled posting.

[Mentalist]

damn.... it's getting to a point where I must continue my re-read (left off at MoI)

I rerally don't remember many of the MT bits and am getting torn to shreds for my ignorance here...

[Gem Windcaster]

I can relate Kud13, I have ideas about everything, but what good does that make if I can't fricking pull out the right quotes?

[Lisheo]

Im the same, never can remember quotes, but the great people on the site always help out