[Optimus Prime]

Well it all ties into how the races that favor "order" and "law" are at odds.

The Liosan fought FA...both zealous believers in their own ideas of balance and perfection.

The Errant, being a causer of chaos, is of course at odds with the FA.

[Lisheo]

Bear in mind that everyone should hate the Errant anyway. Hes not chaotic, hes like a little kid who keeps pushing little pebbles in front of ants to see how they change course. Now, Oponn, the CG, THATS chaos.

Lisheo, proud member of the LHTEC

[Tarr]

He's not like oppon since all he seems to do is cause bad luck (somebody should knife him) the #&%$@£

[Dolorous Menhir]

Wry;274988 said:

Plus you have that flashback of udinas's where the errant has just slaughtered a whole troop of FA

That was Silchas Ruin.

I don't think there's much point in trying to identify each Elder God with a race. That's not how things are set up, with two exceptions (Kilmandaros & undisclosed daughter race, likely the TT or FA, and Mother Dark & the Tiste Andii).

[Tarr]

There are more examples than that! e.g. eres and Menadore says that it was indeed the errant who killed them.

When talking to mappo cottilion states that the houses are the home of the lost elementals who the gods represent.

It may have less to do with the gods themselves and more to do with their elements like all the elements having people specialised for living in them e.g. tiste andii can see in the dark

I really do think that the errent is the FA god and I will be proved right! Mark my words!!!!

[Dolorous Menhir]

We are talking about the vision of a city or building full of dead FA that Udinaas saw in MT? It was Silchas Ruin that killed them. Seriously.

[Lisheo]

It was Silchas, Im really gonna have to agree with DM here...

[Wry]

Beg to differ lads

RG, page 330-1, hardback

Quote

And now corpses had appeared on the stony slopes beneath the temple. Scores, then hundreds.
Tall, skin pale as the shell of turtle eggs, red-rimmed eyes set deep in elongated, chiseled faces, and too many joints on their long limbs, transforming their stiff expressions of death into something surreal, fevered - but this last detail was no surprise.
And now, a smudge of motion in the darkness beneath the lintel stone. a figure staggering into view. unlike the dead. no this one looked... human

...snip...

And now another voice sounded, behind Udinaas, high, distant, a voice of the sky itself. "No Errant, These dead are Forkrul Assail, Dead by your own hand. You cannot kill them to save them--"

So it was the Errant, not Ruin. Incidentally this scene does imply that the FA were followers of the errant at one time and he deeply regrets having to destroy them.

[Lisheo]

Ah, ok, fair enough wry, cheers for that!

[Tiger_sword]

I believe that the FA disliked the Errent because he is the force of instability. He is chance, a push a pull etc. Meanwhile the FA are a force of balance, they seek peace with everything (by killing it!!!) its natural that these two forces would collide. I can however, imagine that originally they had a common vision, but over time they lost their respecive ways.

As for attempting to assign elder gods to specific races. Not quite that simple but remeber that elder gods got their power from blood sacrifice. Choosing a group of creatures (or creating one) then gives that elder god a lot of worship and power.

I would not be surprised if a few EG chose specific groups to influence in order to gain power through worship.

Quite a few races can be tracked back to earlier races. There are only a few "founding races".

[Mentalist]

Ok, fine, I can toss a quote as well as anyone here, lol

tBH, mmpb, the one with "assassin in shadow" on cover , pg 475.
Ganath to Paran

"A master, in hte same manner as the Errant?"
"Who?"
"The master of Holds in my time",, she replied
"I suppose so, then"
"He was an Ascendant, Ganoes PAran. Worshipped as a god by enclaves of Imass, Barghast and Trell. THey kept his mouth filled with blood. He never knew thirst. Nor peace. I wonder how he fell."
"I think I'd like to know that detail myself," Paran said, teken by the Jaghut's words "No-one worships me, Ganath".
"They will. You are newly ascended. Even in this world of yours, I am certain there is no shortage of followers, of those who are desperate to believe. And they will hunt down others and make of them victims. They will cut them and fill bowls with their innocent blood in your name, Ganoes PAran, and so beseech your intercession, your adherence to whatever they righteously fashoion, The Errant though to defeat them, as you might well seek and so he became the god of change. He walked the path of neutrality, yet flavoured it with a pleasure taken in impermanence. The Errant's enemy was ennui, stagnation. This is why the Forkrul Assail sought to anhihilate him. And his mortal followers."

[Dolorous Menhir]

Hmm. I am sure there was a bit in MT where Silchas Ruin killed or had killed some FA. Need to look it up.

[Venerus]

At least one reference when Silchas is talking to Kettle:

MT, 538, Silchas+Kettle:
"Kettle swung around to study that distant heap of ... something. 'Those are bodies, aren't they?'
'Bones. Scraps of clothing, the harnesses they wore.'
'Who killed them?'
...[skip, where Silchas says he's antithetical to the FA]
(Kettle again): 'You killed them.'
'These ones, yes.'"

Then he says "his draconic kin took care of that task" where "task" = "killing the rest of the Assail they could find."

[Venerus]

Wry;275790 said:

Beg to differ lads

RG, page 330-1, hardback

So, I think there's a reading of that RG quote that doesn't *directly* implicate the Errant. It's his nature to push and pull, but not get involved himself -- it's possible he positioned Silchas and the other Eleint to mete out his vengeance for his own followers' deaths. "Kill them to save them" might, *technically* on a grammatical basis, mean "kill [the assail] to save [his dead followers]"

[Mentalist]

Dolorous Menhir;275876 said:

Hmm. I am sure there was a bit in MT where Silchas Ruin killed or had killed some FA. Need to look it up.

not saying he didn't
I was just responding to the suggestion that the Errant was the FA god...

[Wry]

Venerus;275884 said:

So, I think there's a reading of that RG quote that doesn't *directly* implicate the Errant. It's his nature to push and pull, but not get involved himself -- it's possible he positioned Silchas and the other Eleint to mete out his vengeance for his own followers' deaths. "Kill them to save them" might, *technically* on a grammatical basis, mean "kill [the assail] to save [his dead followers]"

Well if you check the context of the whole passage (including the bits i snipped) it's very apparent the the errant did actually kill those FA. it also seems clear to me that he means kill the Assail to save the Assail, and that was why he was calling to Udinaas to be Sheild Anvil - to take their souls and return them to him. Thus leading me to believe that the Assail were his followers, who turned against him when he came out and took a direct hand in world events.

As to his nature, it's discussed a few time in RG, notably during the Errants internal monologue before meeting Fener, that he has changed his tactics a few times during his long existance, from sitting back soaking up power, to going into the world trying to effect change, to his push and pull.

[Lisheo]

I wonder if that is the fate of Shadow House? Soaking up power now. Next comes affect the world, finally crawl away into a hole lol.

[Wry]

Personally i'd be very surprised is Ammanas et all stay within Shadow, i think they've a very specific end point in mind and where they are now is just a way to get there.

More interesting might be whether this is the fate of Paran. The ~Errant went into the world to try to make it better for his followers and ultimately ended up all but destroyed, limited to letheras and only able to affect events in small nudges.

Paran has already resolved to act within the world on mortals behalf, will this all end badly also?

[Gem Windcaster]

Lisheo;275313 said:

Bear in mind that everyone should hate the Errant anyway. Hes not chaotic, hes like a little kid who keeps pushing little pebbles in front of ants to see how they change course. Now, Oponn, the CG, THATS chaos.

Lisheo, proud member of the LHTEC

Exactly! Well said - you get a shiny TTE (taunt the errant) point!

I'd sure like to know more about the FA - if they are against the Errant, as it seems, wouldn't it be great if Ganoes could ally with them?

Man, the alliances should start forming soon, at least more than they have already, and clearer, because I'm confused here.

Venerus;275884 said:

So, I think there's a reading of that RG quote that doesn't *directly* implicate the Errant. It's his nature to push and pull, but not get involved himself -- it's possible he positioned Silchas and the other Eleint to mete out his vengeance for his own followers' deaths. "Kill them to save them" might, *technically* on a grammatical basis, mean "kill [the assail] to save [his dead followers]"

It seems to me he just wants revenge on all living things. I doubt he really cared about his followers - they were making him miserable after all. He probably just want to change everything so that he never has to go through that kind of thing again. Ever wonder why he killed Featherwitch? He was scared witless of her.

[Tiger_sword]

The FA dont seam the type to form alliances, that would break the balance. They seam to act on their own (even from other FA) apart from huge piles of dead FA have we ever seen/heard of a large group of FA?

I have a feeling that they will dislike the idea of a master of the deck, if they even care anymore. They seam to be the least active race probably because of the number of powerful beings they have gone up against.

We are probably more likely to see a few isolated FA with the goal of peace through death. I don't think they are on anyones side but, I'm sure they would strongly oppose the CG chaos and imbalance.

I want to know if Kili is gonna get of her arse and do something (does she even know whats going on? Doubtful, she seams a little insane)