[Lisheo]

The K'Chain Na'Ruk are also order based tho,They dont seem to bother with a small fry like the Errant.

[Abyss]

I had thought the point was that the FA and the Errant's respective aspects were, at some point, either too similar or too opposing to co-exist, thus, the some form of conflict between them.

I had understod that the Errant was always human, but his aspect evolved over time. And i do not think he's an Elder God as far as we know. Old, yes, but not 'Elder' in the sense that Mael, Krul and Draconus are.

Sechul Lach, if that was him hanging with Kila' under the seas in RG, seemed to be FA.

As for direct racial connections between EGs and Races, keep in mind a LOT of the information is filtered through millenia, deliberate spin, and just outright lies - Menandore (and likely Sukul) are Ossi and Tiam's daughter(s), but the Edur on Leth believed them to be Scabby's.

The point is made clear in Tb by Cotillion that most of the races have at least one draconic god or near god aspected to them - Rake, Ossi, Scabby, Olar - and since that covers the three Tiste and the Imass, being the races most closely related to humans, that's as far as that goes.

Nightchill/SOCD is not aspected to any particular race, tho she apears as human.

Kila has a link to SOME race - Imass or TTT seem likely.

Jaghut have no gods but are as powerful as some gods, even so.

Tiam is the logical draconic god, tho i suspect she was just the first draconic soletaken.

Fairly sure the Matrons did not permit the hive-mind KC under their control to have gods but them. The alleged link to the dragons fuzzies that a bit, but it seems unlikely, espeially in light of the whole 'Matrons kept the EGs from the world' thing. It's possible that un-Matron'd KC and KN may have a whole other set of beliefs.

The Imass may have worshipped gods once but the suggestion was made that they outlived them via the Tellan Ritual. Togg and Fanderay's relationship with the Imass is unclear.

- Abyss, not an Elder God but helpedone across the street once...

[Tiger_sword]

Abyss;276378 said:

I had understod that the Errant was always human, but his aspect evolved over time. And i do not think he's an Elder God as far as we know. Old, yes, but not 'Elder' in the sense that Mael, Krul and Draconus are.

I agree

Its probably likely that the Errant ascended to his position in a similar way to Paran. The holds needed a master and he was chosen. It just happened a long time ago when elder god worship was still widespread. Hence the illusion that he is elder (in fact he isn't because by definition elder gods are elemental and holds are not elemental hence the Errant is not elemental > not an elder God)

[Lisheo]

Perhaps he built the Cedance, I doubt his being chosen was accidental. And as for 'Elder' I dont think so. I think he's only Elder in the sense that he fed on blood sacrifices. Elder Gods seem to be into that kinda thing. It was probably like "Hey this guy is aspected to chance and the Holds, that sounds Elder, lets sacrifice ppl to him and make him favour us!'

[Tarr]

Also in bonehunters paran tells fiddler about his theory about the Gods. He says that they are the top of mountains (representing their race) but what about the EG, they are not the top of mountains so maybe they created their own mountains from their children.

[Set'alahd Crool]

Tarr;276641 said:

Also in bonehunters paran tells fiddler about his theory about the Gods. He says that they are the top of mountains (representing their race) but what about the EG, they are not the top of mountains so maybe they created their own mountains from their children.

That's Paran's theory about ascendants, not gods.

The Errant, according to Mael - whose knowledge I trust more than most - is the misguided representation of the FA as worshipped by humans of the first empire. Initially their god of change, later master of the holds. Not Elder.

Kilmandaros - parchment white skin, multi-jointed limbs - seems like the FA. Or rather the FA seem like her, only smaller(hence "Children"; the FA sound like ersatz Killys.).

Grizin Farl & Sechul Lach ??? We don't have enough info for more than idle speculation.

MD is the mother of not only the Andii but the Edur too, and possibly the Liosan if Udinaas' rant at Clip and Ruin - which seemed to hit the mark judging by their reactions - is accurate.

SotCN is a mystery. It seems unlikely that she belongs to or birthed any race, however.

Draconis certainly was NOT worshipped by dragons, since the 3 chained in shadow seem to hate him above all else. "The most reviled of them all!" was the response Cotillion got when he mentioned his name to them.

The K'Chain worshipped no god(s). As was mentioned, they barred the Elder Gods from Wu. On top of that, Ganath describes them to Paran as the (truly) godless ones. Though I think she may have meant the short tails - something about their obsession with their science precluding any form of theism.

Father Light.... Is Edgewalker!!!! Honest.
Think about it. He ruled Shadow, apparently, long before humans came along. Shadow came from the union of Light and Dark, so the only entity with as stong a claim as he to rule it is MD.
Also, he is doomed to walk/patroll the borders of Shadow. What defines the border of shadow? Light!

Ok, so that FL = Edgewalker bit is a stretch, but I'm sticking to it untill SE tells me otherwise.

[Abyss]

Set said:

...
Draconis certainly was NOT worshipped by dragons, since the 3 chained in shadow seem to hate him above all else. "The most reviled of them all!" was the response Cotillion got when he mentioned his name to them.
....

Yes, but we don't know what the relationship was or why he's reviled. The dragons were willing to work with Krul to shape the warrens. Silanah is (ew) very fond of Rake even tho he left three other purebloods chained in the yard for a few hundred millenia. There's a reason why they dont like Draconus - just speculating it may be related to making Dragnipur - and that may have changed the relationship.

We really don't know much about the relationship between the draconic soletaken Elder Gods (Tiam, Krul, Draconus that we know of, distinct from the race aspected ones: Olar, Rake, etc...) and the pureblood Eleint.


- Abyss, thinks they all just need a hug...

[Tarr]

Note: This is for all races

The k'chains gods were their matrons who were their parent

MD and FL for the tiste

Togg and Fandery for ay

Eres for Eres'al

Kilmandaros for Forkul Assail

Tiam for dragons

Above we have repeated examples of races which are quoted as being the children of elder gods and EG's are supposedly the children of MD and FL.

So perhaps the races can all trace their ancestory back to MD and FL...

This makes sense if there was nothing before MD and FL since all life has gotta come from somewhere.

(Have you noticed that although everyone seems so certain of the story of MD and FL, nobody claims to have been there, not even the andii who believe themselves to be the "first" children or the elder gods).

[Mentalist]

I am willing to dispute the Killy/FA connection....

[D'rek]

I am willing to dispute the idea of Tiam being a god to dragons...

[Gem Windcaster]

Well, yeah, we don't know if dragons have gods - Tiam might just be the First dragon or something.

[Tarr]

All dragons are descended from Tiam and she is their god it's just that some are gods in their own right and others are ascendants who are unlikely to worship another god e.g. Anomander Rake isn't seen worshipping mother dark

[Gem Windcaster]

That depends on what the current definition of a god is.

[Tarr]

Someone who's got worshippers?

[Gem Windcaster]

Well, then your definition of 'god in their own right' doesn't apply - if we assume dragons doesn't worship anyone - which was what I meant by 'having gods' - that they don't worship...stuff. I am just saying we don't know very much about dragons.

Except they seem to be very skeptical and cynical creatures.

[Tarr]

Meant followers! and yes they are very cynical and also cold, brutal creatures that kill without mercy. As personified by lady Envy, Spite or the three sisters (who don't seem very religous)

[Gem Windcaster]

Aren't followers and worshipers the same thing with gods?

[Tarr]

I don't think so as Korlat is rake's follower but doesn't kneel before him in prayer (that we have seen).

[Gem Windcaster]

of course, but then Rake isn't a God.

Your argument that Rake should somehow be a god in his own right isn't correct.

Hmm, I'm not sure where that puts us, I'm making my own argument spin here...

[Tarr]

Rake had worshippers in bluerose that worshipped him as a god.