[Yellow]

You're not the first person to pick up on the vagueness of that line It becomes long and unwieldy whenever I try to get the guy's name in there.

It's not meant to confuse/mysterise (that should so be a word) people, so I guess I'd go with something like...

"But first, she must cross paths with a band of Bautrelli warrior mages, the infamous Dying Suns, whose objectives are shrouded in mystery and deceit--hidden even from Orme, their newest recruit."

Blarg.

[Sixty]

Alright, I've finished the first chapter. Some thoughts:

A lot of my thoughts are similar to Gamet's, so I'll try not to be overly redundant.


In terms of overall prose/writing style, I don't like some of your adverb usage but that's more a matter of personal opinion than anything else. It mostly varies based on your target audience, which I won't presume to assume. In addition, I did notice more than a few "as if..." phrases in your first section.

One thing I will say is that by throwing all these pov's at once into the first chapter it makes it rather difficult to get "settled" in the world when I'm jumping from one corner to the other every few pages.

I enjoyed the second section (with Chatka) the best, although its ending does feel a little bit like what I'd expect at the end of a prologue (somewhat). As a contrast to Gamet, I believe you can make a fantastic plot-driven story, although it's always better if your characters are realistic/deep and have appropriate motivation to do whatever it is they end up doing.

The little bit with Fungin at the end was definitely intriguing. I'd certainly want to read more.

[Fist Gamet]

Sixty, on Jun 26 2009, 02:08 PM, said:

I enjoyed the second section (with Chatka) the best, although its ending does feel a little bit like what I'd expect at the end of a prologue (somewhat). As a contrast to Gamet, I believe you can make a fantastic plot-driven story, although it's always better if your characters are realistic/deep and have appropriate motivation to do whatever it is they end up doing.

It's not that I don't think it can be done, it's just a preference, mate. I do believe that the more character-driven a story is, the more engaging it is, but I can enjoy it either way. In my opnion, such a classic as LoTR is plot-driven (I mean, Tolkien wrote the book as a platform for the elvish language, apparently!) but will always be a terrific story.

You do make a very good point about scene-hopping, and I am sure I am guilty of this as well. I have so much story to tell it becomes difficult to slow down and pace it out properly. In my head, the thought of not introducing a central character or plot until page 200 is horrifying...yet good writers do it all the time!

[Sixty]

Yup. I think that the hopping is certainly viable--you see it all the time with Erikson and Bakker (2 of my favorite writers btw) and they do fine with it. But a lot of the gripes with the two (along with Martin, for example) is that it's hard to really get grounded in their stories because it jumps so much.

Perhaps a chapter or two from a single PoV before you start jumping? That's my personal preference, at least.

[RangerSG]

Sixty, on Jun 27 2009, 10:02 AM, said:

Yup. I think that the hopping is certainly viable--you see it all the time with Erikson and Bakker (2 of my favorite writers btw) and they do fine with it. But a lot of the gripes with the two (along with Martin, for example) is that it's hard to really get grounded in their stories because it jumps so much.

Perhaps a chapter or two from a single PoV before you start jumping? That's my personal preference, at least.

In general, a chapter from a PoV is enough to avoid the head-jumping issue. If the scene warrants it (like a large battle), shifting PoVs more frequently is ok when they're all in the same place. Especially since you want to show the frenetic nature of things at that point. In general, the big thing to me is don't forget about a PoV if you've established it as a major character. And don't hop around just to hop.

On a separate but related note; if you do romance, don't head hop between the partners, pick one side of the couple and stay with it through the whole section. You can come back later and tell what the other was thinking. But don't switch. The whole point of a romance is to establish attachment between characters. Head-hopping slaughters intimacy, which thus results in detachment, the opposite of what you want.

[Yellow]

Thanks for the comments, sixty. I'm not sure I agree with you about the switching in POVs, but I understand where you're coming from.

Large sections of a book from one POV (or one setting) tend to bore me to death. In Gardens of the Moon, Erikson doesn't introduce Kruppe and all of the Daru boys until page... something... and it really pissed me off to shift to a whole new set of characters when already a fair chunk into the book. Jordan has very lengthy chapters with only one POV (and sometimes multiple chapters next to each other), and if I don't like the character, it's a real slog to get through.

But anyway. I quite like fast-paced openings to a book. Terry Pratchett does it all the time, though of course his books are quite short so he does it even faster (and better, obviously ).

[Yellow]

Sending out my chapter two to the usual suspects... although google mail seems to have died.

This post has been edited by Yellow: 04 July 2009 - 02:00 PM

[Sixty]

Gmail works fine for me.

[Yellow]

Weird. Neither google.co.uk or gmail are working this end.

[Sixty]

Jeez, and I thought China's internet was bad.

[Yellow]

Our internet may be bad, but our Findus crispy pancakes make up for it!

This post has been edited by Yellow: 04 July 2009 - 02:20 PM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Ok.
The part I liked the most was the one with the Maghin and the Guardians. You let us wonder what the hell are the guardians and you managed to answer this question and at the same time you shed just the right amount of light on the prologue.
The part with the two armies was still rather misterious but I liked the grittiness and the sense of despair that was clear from Yanish POV. It also intrigued me that there are clearly different types of Mages and that Weaveris one of them.(Fom the synopsis it's clear that there are also Bautrelli mages, whatever they are )
The part with Pir was theone I liked the least. It felt a little flat and simply a way so we can know how Pir can find the other general.

[Yellow]

Glad you liked it There are different types of magic, and different proficiencies within those different types. Weavers are a mid-high level of proficiency within one type of magic (other types are Tapper, Thatcher and Spinner). If that makes sense.

Bautrelli mages are mages who work in/from the temple of Bautrellam. The Dying Suns is the name they give to their Warrior caste.

I'm glad the grittiness came across, that's the vibe I was going for, and try for throughout the book - not necessarily overly violent or dark, but I do try to make characters feel what is happening to them.

This post has been edited by Yellow: 04 July 2009 - 06:02 PM

[Fist Gamet]

SPOILERS

I had a lot of time on my hands so I got down to the nitty-gritty. 

“…the cold steel sharp against his skin…” felt that was the wrong way around. I mean, you can ‘feel’ the cold, but can you feel ‘sharp’?

“…discarded sand dunes…” discarded?

This idea of Gis, it seems is one where the user must surrender to it and then be strong as it is intoxicating and dangerous. Sounds very much like Robert Jordan, no? I am not saying this is a bad thing, per se, as I accept the prevalent rule in fantasy that mortals with extraordinary gifts must pay some sort of price for those gifts. Just doesn’t seem too original.

Or is it like a river, where mortals must anchor themselves to the shore before diving in to the strong, dangerous currents?

“…the autumn air with their quiet whispers. They were browning and getting ready to drop, but there was still some life left in them yet…” Just a thought, but don’t both these lines really say the same thing? I bet you could drop the word ‘autumn’ and I would know it from the lines before and after.

I don’t know that I am too comfortable with the whole Treris and Shunsa scene. It felt rushed. I presume Treris is important but I did not learn much about him there, except he is an apprenticed mage studying in an isolated world where he has an old, wizened mentor…he is gifted but impatient and retains the youthful disrespect for his elders as he thinks he is being held back, and still has much to learn…
I really believe you can come up with something far more original and creative than that. It is very tired and I started to think that your work just dropped a couple of notches in quality. For me, this is a horrible cliché.

“…An hour later…” I don’t think I have ever read that line in a fantasy novel. Do they measure time in hours in your world?

“…The room beyond was nothing more than a typical study…” come on, mate, you can do way better than that. I am getting the distinct impression you really didn’t enjoy writing this part of the story.

“…Orme had always thought him too unseemly, unworthy of the Dying Suns…” why? If it is because of the suspected drinking and the lavish getup, it could be clearer.

“…A powerful man…” I will have to take your word for it as I know nothing about the Warrior Caste at this point. Perhaps it would make more of an impression on me if I knew just how lethal or dangerous the caste were before this point – even a few lines.

“…why couldn’t he keep his voice steady?” Nice, I am glad you show us that the cocky young guy is intimated, much to his own disgust, because I think this is realistic. Most cocky bastards still crumble when the police nab them.

“…where he gazed out over the temples…” Temples? What temples?

At the point where Orme is told he will not be taking the vow, and he is dismayed, I had a thought. What if you opened this entire chapter with a scene where another initiate becomes a Weaver? Perhaps there is a big gathering in the temple, a ritual where we observe with Orme the whole thing. This would be a great way of introducing the whole concept of the vow, the castes, the temple dynamics, Orme’s place within it and so on…just a couple of pages would do it, I reckon.
It is just that if we introduce readers to a concept (like not taking the vow) at the same time as we try to make them understand how monumentous this is, it doesn’t work if they have never heard of it before. I don’t think this chapter has been set up properly for the reader.

“…The gravity of the situation was beginning to sink in…” but not really with me.

I am not sure what I make of Choae yet. Do you want me to think of him as a man who rages silently against his situation, but ultimately will accept it and do as he is told? Is this why he gets angry and then loses himself in a book rather than take action? Escapism?

“…An assassin’s blade…” Hmmm, so I gathered…

The scene with Vos was much better. It was slick, well paced and well done. Could have been a bit longer but that might have taken the slickness out of it. It felt efficient, which I guess suits a scene with an assassin.

“…watched her expression go from stubborn refusal, to puzzlement, then through realisation…” she is quite emotional and expressive for an assassin, no?

You always manage to end your scenes on the right note. Now, the mystery of the note – I hope you will not be too long in revealing it. As some famous writer once said (can’t recall who) “If you are going to write about there being a gun hung upon the wall in the first chapter, you better damn well have used it by the third.” Or something like that. The point being about the use of plot elements. You pose lots of clues and interesting mystery, but I hope you plan to start answering some of them.

On an different point, I want to see you move on to give me a lengthy scene involving four, five or more characters. So far you have focused almost entirely on sets with two or three characters. Have you noticed?

If you have more, email them.

[Yellow]

Thanks for the comments... wow, you didn't like that much

I will have a think on all of this over the next few days. I disagree with some of the things you've raised, but I will have another look and try and come at the chapter with fresh eyes.

Orme is an important character to the book/series, so I don't want him to put people off too much. He is supposed to be arrogant and obnoxious to begin with - which I guess is a cliché - but I never wanted to overdo it. He basically becomes something of a bad guy later in the series (though he's always doing what he thinks is right), so I am trying to chart how that could happen to someone like him.

[Sixty]

Just finished reading yours. I don't mind Orne's character so much as the scene itself. The whole teacher-student lesson thing feels somewhat cliche imo.

I have to agree with a lot of Gamet's sentiments about Orne's point of view regarding the prose. I feel like you could do a lot better with the showing/demonstrating reactions.

Such as...
"The clerk shuffled back into the room, looked Orme up and down with an air of faint distaste, and told him in a huddled, rasped voice that he was to come in."
An air of faint distaste...why not something along the lines of their nose tilted up, a huff, or, dare I say, a pulled braid? Something to demonstrate that attitude.

Or
"Gransa Mendell left the room in a dark mood, and Orme got the feeling he’d been the cause of an argument. "
How about something like:
"Gransa Mendell slinked from the room, regarded Orne with a brief glare, then slipped out of sight." Less telling more showing--it makes the reader think, which is good.

"Orme couldn’t believe it, it just felt so wrong. "
That sentence made me cringe.

I second Gamet's idea about the vow-taking scene. Your setting reminds me of the scholar-city in Neal Stephenson's Anathem, where they introduced you to their society with the Fraas and whatnot with the bell-toll ritual. Something similar would work well here IMO.

On to Vos's section.

I, like Gamet, preferred this section. I feel like you were more involved in the action as opposed to the setting-up, which keeps it more interesting/engrossing.
I'm a little intrigued at this point--what exactly is Rax/Vos's motives? Did they want the rebels to escape or something? And is Rax some sort of assassin-pimp?

Send me the next chapter if you like.

[Yellow]

Thanks, sixty! I guess the consensus is in on the Orme scene. I've been having a think about it so in a few days/weeks I may go back and rewrite this from scratch.

As for the nose-tilting thing, I think I've said before that I don't like to do this kind of stuff. When was the last time you (or any adult you know) walked out of a room in a huff with your nose tilted? Braid-pulling is exactly the thing I'm most afraid of

I'll send you the next chapter. If you (and anyone else) would take the time to re-read chapter two sometime further down the line, it would be appreciated.

Cheers!

PS - forgot to answer your question about Vos/Rax. Rax is a chargeman, which basically means you're right - he is a kind of assassin pimp! Their motives become clear soon enough, so I won't say anything unless you really want me to go into detail. I'd rather find out what you think of the way it becomes clear, rather than telling you straight off.

This post has been edited by Yellow: 05 July 2009 - 01:21 PM

[Sixty]

Fair enough about the nose tilted. But I wouldn't doubt that someone who's pissed would at least glance/glare at whoever they're pissed at before leaving. You know? I suppose his departure would vary based on his character; I won't make any assumptions in that respect.

I'd rather find out; I was mainly listing some questions that I popped up as I finished reading.

Go ahead and send it to me; I'll try to get it read in the next couple days.

[Yellow]

Sixty, on Jul 5 2009, 02:31 PM, said:

Fair enough about the nose tilted. But I wouldn't doubt that someone who's pissed would at least glance/glare at whoever they're pissed at before leaving. You know?

Yeah, I know what you mean. I will definitely think about that in a re-write. I just fear the melodrama. People tend not to go around making all their feelings plain on their face, sort of thing. If you were pissed off at your boss because of a decision you didn't like, would you glare at him on your way out? Would you glare at the new guy?

Maybe that's trying to make it all too mundane, but realistic reactions are what I'm trying to aim for. I may not always hit the mark, of course

[Fist Gamet]

I think in this case I would agree with you , Yellow. I think it is fair to say that he could get that impression / gut feeling without there being any obvious sign from Gransa. Further, I would argue that men like Gransa would only make it to the top in a cut-throat world if they were perfectly able to disguise their feelings and motives. Orme is a young guy in an intimidating place and he is nervous. That shows and it is fair to say his imagination could be leading him to fear the worst.
As for Orme's character, I don't mind him either, but if he is to be a main character I might want to see something more coming up next, something different and distinct about his personality.

Got Ch3 now so I will get back to you.