[Skywalker]

Abyss;271891 said:

Couple of points:

(snip)

2. Iccy threatens Ryallandaras with telling Treach Ry' is alive. Ry decides to go hunt the Aptorian instead.

(snip)

Actually, Mappo's exact quote in DG was:

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Long way from home, aren't we. Your brother Treach had it in mind that he killed you. Where was that chasm? Dal Hon? Or was it Li Heng? You were D'ivers jackals then, I seem to recall.

(snip)

Hunt elsewhere, Ryllandaras, before Icarium does Treach a favour

I don't think that meant Iccy would tell Treach where Ryll is - it meant Iccy will do Treach a favor and kill Ryllandaras before he has to.

Also, you said couple of points... and made 6.

Now, a couple of points from me:

1) it is interesting that D'ivers can eventually change their form (Ryll did from Jackals to Wolves) Wonder how that works.
2) Fiddler later tells Kimlock the Tanno Spiritwalker:

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The Emperor clashed with both Treach and Ryllandaras outside Li Heng. I was there

That would make one heck of a scene in any pre-NoK novellas SE/ ICE may be pursuaded to write in the future, no?

Skywalker - bein cheeky!

[Abyss]

Skywalker;271896 said:

...
I don't think that meant Iccy would tell Treach where Ryll is - it meant Iccy will do Treach a favor and kill Ryllandaras before he has to.

Acknowledged.

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Also, you said couple of points... and made 6.

Die.

Quote

2) Fiddler later tells Kimlock the Tanno Spiritwalker:

That would make one heck of a scene in any pre-NoK novellas SE/ ICE may be pursuaded to write in the future, no?

Agreed.

- Abyss, means 'die' in a nice way, of course...

[Mentalist]

meh... Jackals/wolves--i think he mimics whatrever canine is local to the region.
RE: Trake. I can't remember where and who was it that was talking about K'rul freeing the wolves (possibly, Spite?), but there is a mention that Treach was either "too young" or "too inexperienced" to become the full-ledged embodiment of war.
Also, if you think about it, it's a nice metaphor: the Summer is done/receded, Winter has come....

....




wait a minute....

[Venerus]

kud13;272046 said:

meh... Jackals/wolves--i think he mimics whatrever canine is local to the region.
RE: Trake. I can't remember where and who was it that was talking about K'rul freeing the wolves (possibly, Spite?), but there is a mention that Treach was either "too young" or "too inexperienced" to become the full-ledged embodiment of war.
Also, if you think about it, it's a nice metaphor: the Boar's Summer is done/receded, Age of Moon's Tears has come....

....




wait a minute....

Fixed! Now with references to Icarium's Daru calendar

[pastures]

Skywalker;271896 said:

1) it is interesting that D'ivers can eventually change their form (Ryll did from Jackals to Wolves) Wonder how that works.

Ryll is special. A genius shapeshifter. I dont think D'ivers can naturally change forms.

[Venerus]

I don't know, Pastures, it seems like Soletaken get larger. Or at least, they can be much larger versions of their normal counterparts. To me, that sounds like power level affects shape, and since power can change, so might shape. Extending that to D'ivers might mean only numerical increases, but why not also shape?

Just my two cents, of course. Nothing to back it up, really.

[Sinisdar Toste]

ryllandaras has mastered both gifts, whatever that means, so it makes sense that he knows all the fine details about how to shapeshift better than anyone else

[Quick~]

It would be interesting to have a Ryllandaras PoV at some point in time, that'd probably shed some more light on various matters related to shapesihfting.

[Lisheo]

That'd be interesting alright. Ryllandras seems damn cule, and he is the only one able to truly control the gifts. Tho I wonder if that was why SE gave us Dejim Nebrahl, to explain Soletaken/D'ivers further...
He killed and stole life to repair himself, forge other D'Ivers, I wonder if it depends on which being a Soletaken kills? I mean, if Ryllandras killed a God or something. And the Pack, was that a Trolhbarahl?

[VampireGoat]

Im pretty sure The Pack was a Trolhbarahl since it was ment to be the local soletaken elder god which is what the trolhbarahl were ment to be. Also his description matches Dejim perfectly, a lizard cat. Since Dejim was refered to as A trolhbarahl as apposed to THEE, its fair to assume their are more and The Pack is one of them.

[Sinisdar Toste]

thank hood they're both dead. iron bars squad probably had an easier time cuz the pack was so weak, having just crawled out of an azath, but theyre still bitchin to kill a soletaken pseudo elder god.

[Lisheo]

Ah I wouldnt call them an Elder God... Just they feed on blood like the Elders.

[Abyss]

VampireGoat;272763 said:

Im pretty sure The Pack was a Trolhbarahl since it was ment to be the local soletaken elder god which is what the trolhbarahl were ment to be. Also his description matches Dejim perfectly, a lizard cat. Since Dejim was refered to as A trolhbarahl as apposed to THEE, its fair to assume their are more and The Pack is one of them.

Not exactly. Yes, The Pack and Dejim were both superficially Lizard Cat d'ivers, but The Pack was a First Empire shapeshifter who escaped the post-ritual Imassacre (hee hee, see what i did there?) and was worshipped as a god by the Jheck with whatever power that entailed, at least until he ended up stuck under the Azath. Its shapeshifters forms were the lizard cats that probably have another name (there was a lizard dog d'ivers Fiddler spotted in DG that was eaten by another shapeshifter).

Dejim was the result of Dessimbelackis' experiments into creating what appear to have been soletaken lizard cat vampires, some of whom escaped and hid their souls collectively in one body that was later bound by the Nameless Ones. He was able to split off into separate lizard cat shadow bodies, iirc the description. 'Trohlbaral' appears to ref the vampire element, not the lizard cat element, but that's just a guess.

Not quite the same thing, tho' both had a physical similarity.


- Abyss, lizard cat biologist...

[Abyss]

Lisheo;272723 said:

That'd be interesting alright. Ryllandras seems damn cule, and he is the only one able to truly control the gifts. ...

Interesting point this, because while Ry' the two times we see him, opposite Iccy and Mappo in DG and opposite Karsa in HoC, he doesn't seem stark raving mad, but it does seem he's taken on some beastial elements - the whole thrill of the hunt thing - stalking the Aptorian and stalking Karsa just for the fun of it.

Messremb was lucid, tho' Mappo comments he sees madness in his eyes.

Gryllen may have been nuts but he was crafty nuts, not exactly drooling on his bellies babbling sort of thing. he even had undead servants and a palanquin and so on.

- Abyss, bacontaken'...

[Lisheo]

Hmmm okies I see your point with the pack. Does that mean that Dejim Nebrahl was the last Trohlbarahl?
How did Gryllen get undead servants? According to someone in DG, Soletaken dont use warrens. Even tho Gryllen did seem like quite the mage.

[Kalahinen]

How about the Imass Soletaken Bonecasters, Lisheo. They all use magic.

[Lisheo]

Ah crap lol... thanks Kalahinen, I totally forgot about them!

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I think it means simply that D' ivers can take more shapes

______________________________

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You can't be serious!
Death is always serious.

Paran and Hood

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This rain will make the sea rise, yes?

Mallick Rel to Pearl

[Optimus Prime]

Be careful BauchelaintheEvil, you don't want to read in areas of the forum that you haven't read the books...stuff might be spoiled for you

[Abyss]

Shapeshifters can use warrens in the same way humans can. Some have the ability, some don't.

It appears from DG and HoC that ALL shapeshifters can communicate mind to mind if they wish, which suggests Mokra but could just be a telephathy thing.

Gryllen has necromancy and apparently Mokra on his side. Sure, he could have paid someone to animate the corpses, but he definitely tries to brain-seduce Felisin.

The dhenrabi d'ivers was using what looked like Ruse to travel through the Azath in the finale of DG.

In the same sequence, when Moby shows up in Bhokarala form, he's described as singed and smoking, iirc, so someone hit him with a fire warren of some sort.

Bauchelain and Korbal are obvious examples, tho i fighure they likely became soletaken after meeting back in the day, given that they both have the same veered form. See also Fayelle in HoC, tho we never see it.

Silverfox obviously, tho she's a special case(s). Bonecasters generally are another example, albeit they are a different flavour of shapeshifter from the First Empire ones. It certainly seems that ALL Bonecasters have access to warren(s) while only some shapeshifters of the non-Imass type do.

Similarly, i would guess most Draconic soletaken have access to SD at a minimum, tho aside from travelling through warrens and bad breath, we haven't really seen what they can do with it, aside from whatever Menandore was doing with the dead souls when she sheboinged Udinaas in MT. We never saw Rud use any warrens (or even veer, actually), so a human draconic may have different aspects from a Tiste draconic.



- Abyss, tends to veer suddenly while driving...