[Gwynn ap Nudd]

Abyss;272433 said:

I'm afraid that Keruli guy running around for most of MoI sinks your theory. Kallor acknowledged him as a manifestation of Krul, and he appeared in whole scenes while Kruppe was at the other side of the continent. While Stonny eventually swore to him, he was already running around recruiting guards and driving wagons before that happened.

- Abyss, always wondered if K'rul was a tribute to Krull...

Except that the point was that K'rul could only manifest in a mortal's dreams at first. Since MoI takes place after GotM, it would no longer be at first, but later on. The exact quote comes during K'rul's brief conversation with Rake in the belfry of K'rul's old temple just before Rake takes on the Gaylan demon (K'rul is speaking):

"I have no means of assisting you this night, Anomander Rake. I am manifest in this sanctified place and manifest in a lone mortal's dreams, but nowhere else."

pp 672-673 GotM.

[Aptorian]

This is true, during MoI we learn that two new temples have been reawakened, the one in Capustan and the one inside the Panion Domin that had been awakened by the slaughter.

[Monoch Ochem]

So what's K'rul so depressed about, is my question?

All these scenes of them being depressed; yeesh!

Cotillion with his head in his hands in that cavern;

D'rek slaughtering her vestry;

The Spider Elder almost crying for Mappo;

Poor Kilmandaros stuck on some overgrown shrink's couch..... and now K'rul needing a duvet and haagen daas- shouldn't SOMEONE have invented a Lord of Psychideity or something.

Shadowthrone....now THERE'S a fella! No time for the depression gambit- he's busy! Do you understand? Busy!

[Cluracan AbSylvas]

Hiya folks. Hetan... many thanks.

So this thought occupies me atm:

Who is the third, gaunt, grey robed and hooded person in the meeting? Well what do we know?

Male. Of a height with EW. Cloaked in grey. Hooded. Called EW to the meeting (has the capacity to summon EW or at least ask and expect EW to arrive). Knows where they meet, while ST affects not to know.

What can we infer?

This is a person(age) of power. He is familiar with EW and Shadowthrone, and does not appear to be threatened by either. He seems comfortable relating to both, but does not appear overly-superior to either. Is aware of and disinterested with the setting for the meeting.

"The hooded one said, “Ghastly? I suppose it is. A necropolis of sorts, Shadowthrone. A village of the discarded. Both timeless and, yes, useless. Such places,” he continued, “are ubiquitous.”"

Shadowthrone’s one-liner, “Speak for yourself,” could be one of the most telling lines in this part of the prologue.

Doesn’t this strike anyone else as an awkward rejoinder to a comment about the environment? Unless, of course, ST was alluding to the fact that the grey cloaked one was OF the realm around them. This could point to Hood if they are in Hood’s Realm… but could also allude to K’rul.

If K’rul’s veins/blood are the warrens then wouldn’t K’rul be where everyone/thing winds up whether dead or alive? Isn’t K’rul timeless? In his capacity as the vehicle for the warrens (like the bed of a river); is he not useless? And lastly, isn’t K’rul ubiquitous?

I like this theory… please to poke holes, or point me in the direction of new ideas.

Oh yeah, and as someone said earlier (on page 6/7 of the 19 I think)…

The carriage is arriving from “down the street”, clearly a different direction than “up the street” (where the hounds are glaring with hackles rising) whence comes the fourth person to the meeting with Edgewalker, Shadowthrone and Hood/K'rul/TBD, the carriage doesn’t appear to be bringing the fourth party to the meeting.

Happy Prologstication,

Clu

[Jason]

My theory is that the first bit is in the shadow realm. I mean, it should be obvious no? EW is stuck there!

Okay, obviously the evidence contrary to this is that at no point is anything described as being “shadowy.” However this scene is from the POV of a dead chick. We know that the Warren of Shadow is full of ghosts. These two at the beginning are clearly ghosts. Why else would the HoS ignore them so completely? We don’t know how the dead trapped there perceive it. Maybe it ain’t shadowy to them at all.

Like every metaphysical aspect of Wu we are not given clear cut answers to the nature of various things (which is great), yet it is hinted that the physical world is reflected in the Shadow Realm a little like the astral plane or the ethereal plane from other esoteric traditions and fantasy works.

Certainly the fact that every dragon has a “shadow aspect” suggests something of this nature. I think the Jade rain is another indication of this, describing the fallout across the warrens of the fall of the jade giant.

The conversation between the three figures is interesting. There are several moments when their conversation suggests they share something in common such as ST saying “if any of us were” and the way the hounds act suggests to me this is a gathering of all who have tried to rule shadow. There is also “speak for yourself.” Is not Shadowthrone rubbing it in that he now rules this place and so to HIM it is not a useless place?

Then we have the “last one.” There are four who share something in common and only four. We know ST and EW both ruled tried to rule the Shadow Realm, what else do they share?

Now for the last point of the theory. That wagon coming… don’t you think it is interesting that the very next scene we are taken inside the sword? Anyone wondered where the wagon is traveling through?

I believe that this opening scene isn’t just telling us that a bunch of gods are catching up for a chinwag. This opening scene, like most of SEs prologues is taking us to the very heart of the conflict.

[Sinisdar Toste]

couldnt the wagon also have its shadow in the shadow realm? panek says they all cast shadows, how much "they all" are we talking about?
and i like the idea that its a gathering of the people who have tried to rule shadow and didn't get wasted like so many others.
also think the wagon down the road could be anomander and the ghost woman can hear the wagon and everything cuz its all ghosts pulling it.

[Seed]

I think ST and Edgewalker et al are sitting in the warren of Shadow in the congruent area to Drift Avalii. Watching the fallout of the soulstorm from the jade statues. Although I have no real evidence it's just a feeling I'm getting. I think they're gonna do something with the Throne and that needs alot of the previous and current Influentials linked to Shadow to turn up. Maybe ST is going to finally do an official seating and claiming, perhaps in some sort of effort to reanchor shadow and renew it's regeneration cycle? It is pretty disgusting what's been happening in all the various shadow pieces over recent history. If the grey hooded man is indeed K'rul I don't blame him for being a bit miffed. My main claimants for grey hooded man™ at the moment are K'rul or Cotillion, I'm leaning towards K'rul simply for the tone apparent in the village/ubiquitous statement towards Shadowthrone. Seems a bit formal for Dancer towards Kellanved.

Love the explanations behind why it's dragnipurs wagon turning up in the last couple of posts, great points all of them. You've convinced me, apart from explaining why the ghost lady thinks it's her ride out of there.

[Sinisdar Toste]

ahh just arrogance of nobility, you know, that old hat laddie:)

[Silencer]

Yeah -- she's stupid and highborn....so says SE!

Definitely the most likely is Dragnipur.

[VampireGoat]

But it can't be dragnipur surely?

I know SE says the woman is dense but to mistake some apocolpyse style wagon dragging along the worlds worst set of mages monsters demons gods dragons etc being followed by the malazan equivelent of the gates of hell for you taxi home is really pushing it.

And if dragnipur's wagon can just leave the sword warren when it feels like doesn't kind break everything we know about the sword? it being some no escape prison? Stuck in a pocket warren which has one exit to Kurald Gialin(sp?)

As far as we know the carriage is brining the last person to the meeting, if the death wagon itself comes up the meeting is going to go way beyond 4....

dont get me wrong I love the idea of say, draconus being the 4th member of the discussion but if the wagon rolls up itself your going to get every god, dragon demon all trying to pitch in. There's some serious personalities their they arn't going to sit back at the nearest glympse of freedom they've seen in a long time.

Lets be honest, rake isn't going to come anywhere riding it when he can just bring it in sword form.

Also if it is that said carriage its going to be dragging chaos through this little place practicly eating up and destorying everything in its path which would kill our little meeting to.

the big point though for me is if someone is riding the doom cart to this meeting, they've gotta make it STOP. I dont see ST and Edgewalker and Hood(?) running along next to it to keep up conversation. If the wagon stops.... well that is apparently the absolute end of the world..

Sorry but I just feel that the dragnipur wagon is to busy running away from chaos to go else where. On top of that I dont think its possible for the wagon to leave the sword else it makes the sword somewhat pointless.

My bets are on the coach being Paran using the Trygall trade guild as a taxi service yet again

[Mentalist]

Yeah, I find trhe notion that it's Dragnipur unrealistic. After all, Paran had to get his blood mixed in order to get into that warren, and that was something no one did in years...
OTOH, ST+Cot DO have an access to an SD gate now... who the hell knows where that gives them access to?

[Cluracan AbSylvas]

Thanks to Hetan for posting, and SE for illuminating! :-)

On the carriage arriving from down the street...

I am in the, "I don't think this is Dragniwagon," camp. First, I imagine that the first thing one might hear wouldn't be the clatter of carriage wheels on cobbles, but the incessant groaning/moaning/screaming of the poor bastards hauling the wagon... I just have to imagine that the ginormous-wagon-of-doom ™ probably wouldn't sound like a carriage.

I love SE's emphasis on the fact that the female ghost is very wrong about the assumption that this is her ride; and I hope that the carriage might be KB&B. Now I haven't read any of the novellas so I don't know where they slide into the current state of affairs; last I read they were a little brow-beaten in MOI. Carriage could also be a TTG carriage bringing something nasty. *shrug* I can't wait to find out.

I still don't think that the carriage is bringing the fourth person to the meeting... POV from the characters still seems to me to point to different directions. While it's impossible to tell whether the ghosts and the triad of ST/EW/TBD are right next to each other or not... "up" and "down" the street are still different directions in my book.

So I think we have the fourth member of the meeting arriving, and annoying the hounds, and a random carriage arriving at the same time. Interesting non?

After reading Jason's post, I'm leaning towards his view that the meeting of the four takes place in Shadow. I'm not 100% sold on the thought that the four are all past/present rulers of Shadow. I still like K'rul for the grey third... But freely admit that it could absolutely be someone we haven't yet met. The fact that the four are together to mitigate 'something' interests me. What do they intend? What damage are they trying to minimize?

The nice thing about speculation here is that I know that in few months I'll likely be wrong, and happy about it.

-- Clu

[Abyss]

I tend to agree that it's Paran using TTG travel agency. Based on TB, there are obviously some places he can't just stroll into on his MoD mojo.

Other possibilities that we know have used the TTG express include Kruppe, Baruk and QB. And of course, there's the fact that as an extremely powerful and extremely expensive service, whomever would be using them would have to be significant.

That said, hey, it might not be TTG at all.

- Abyss, loves a good carriage ride.

[blackzoid]

I like the idea that the initial part of the prologue is about all the past/present rulers of Shadow. I think this is implied in the fact that the priest gives his dog to the woman, like Shadowthrone taking over control of the Hounds of Shadow when initially taking power.
So, the "power" characters in the first part could be Shadowthrone, Edgewalker, and perhaps a member of the Tiste Edur royal line who Bloodeye killed? Either the hooded character or in the carriage.

[tiam]

i have to say ive just properly read the prologue and it appears to me that ST Edgewalker and Hood are in Hoods realm discussing the breaking of Dragnipur. This is only instinct but the quotes support this.

Dark grey hooded robe as tall as edgewalker- Hood = jaghut theory virtually a cert now and explains the height.

'You have called me here to mitigate'

Edgewalker is used in this case as a neutral in negotiations beetween STand Hood on the where and how of breaking of Dragnipur. This could be ST needs help from Hood or Hood is willing to help for the souls from Dragnipur although its not specified whether he receives all these souls or simply the ones that have deid in Dragnipur

'this has been a long time in coming'

'maybe to you Edgewalker'

Not really anything to take from this just that Edgewalker has been waiting for this and Hood hasnt been waiting that long. Ok this bit is weak

'Why now?'

'Disgust'

Hood is disgusted with all the souls he cant get and also that Anomanders behavior is disgusting by chaining souls for his sword. Also this makes sense as Dragnipur disgusts many and now it seems even Hood is appalled.

Just a theory please pull apart

[Mentalist]

only 1 problem immediately jumps out.... we were previously led to believe that Edgewalker can't leave the Shadow realm...

[Aptorian]

Maybe Erikson doesn't know that

[Kimloc]

Hmm, didn't Edgewalker leave the Shadow realm when he saved Temper from being strangled by that parasite in Nok? p122-23

[Abyss]

Shadow was overlapping Malaz island when that happened.

- Abyss, notes warren geography is murder...

[Imperial Historian]

Quote

Hmm, didn't Edgewalker leave the Shadow realm when he saved Temper from being strangled by that parasite in Nok? p122-23

Technically know as it was the night of the shadow moon and all of malaz island was technically part of shadow for that night at least.

The fact that it looks to be hood's realm isn't a problem, as if it's on the border of shadow edgewalker could be there, so it could be a boundary realm between hood's realm and shadowthrones. This makes sort of sense being neutral ground an all, ST and hood don't strike me as being trusting enough to walk into the heart of the others power, or let another walk into the heart of there's.