[Obdigore]

caladanbrood;283572 said:

So, if someone had no tips, would the employer have to pay them $10?

Eventually. Unless other waiters in the place made nice tips, then that person would get fired for being a crappy waiter.

You can't make a societal change like that overnight, and if I just stop tipping in an attempt to make a change like that, I would just be stiffing people who wait on me at resteraunts.

[Shinrei]

I have produced logical arguments to show why this is a system and not charity.

Why does everyone KEEP COMING BACK with the word charity, and NEVER address my points?

I know there are smart people on here, who like to have arguments using facts and logic, but everyone on this thread keeps countering with the same irrelevency.

Therefore, in conclusion, I believe that there is a PM conspiracy going around instructing everyone to take the piss at shinrei's expense. Damn brits.

[Vengeance]

I tip for service. If I have good service then I leave a 20% tip if I have crappy service then I leave a 5% tip or no tip at all. You could look at it as another tax, but a tax that is not mandatory. As for the whole infation thing vs. the minimum wage thing. Inflation has more to do with the amount of money in circulation then it does minimum wage. The only people who are really effected by minimum wage are the people at the bottom wrong of the ladder. If you looked at the numbers the price of gas and oil would have a much greater effect on inflation then minimum wage...

[Anomander Rake]

@Shinrei no Shintai

I have to disagree with your logic.

You are saying, correct me if I'm wrong but the US systems works as follows:

Food is Cheaper - good for customers
Very low wage - bad for employee
Tips are expected - Good for employee

But the European models works as :

Food is more expensive - Bad for Customers
Waiters makes appropriate wage (where this is minimum, or more if your in a high end restaurant) - good for all employees
Tips are not expected, but are a great bonus - good for employee.

What you fail to mention is, though the tips that are expected is good for the employee it is bad for the customer who has to pay on top of the food.

The two systems do cancelled each other out in how much the customer ends up paying. (in US I pay $100 meal, and $20 tips (or more if someone is very impressed). In Europe I pay $120 and no tip (unless very impressed by service))

But the downside to the US method is, it becomes a gamble/luck. There will be some waiters who earn lots of money, and those who earn less. Whereas the European method helps ensure better that all waiters earn the same amount, and therefore that wealth is more evenly distributed. Whereas the US system creates more of a winner and loser situation, and wealth is not as evenly distrubuted.

Though you don't agree with where tipping is expected being viewed as charity, from my point of view it is. Because if I was to go to the US tomorrow, the only reason (aside from me really liking someone who provided service beyond expectations), I would end up giving the tip is because I would be feeling sorry for the waiter with my knowledge that he/she earns very little wage and if I don't tip them, they will struggle to pay bills etc.

[Optimus Prime]

If someone wants to pay me double the hourly wage I make right now....then sure...i won't expect as many tips, but American society is deeply entrenched in tipping. It's done everywhere, in every type of service industry.

I think it encourages your employees to work harder and do a better job truthfully. I've been working in the industry for a long time now, and you get what you put into your job. I like the idea.

[Shinrei]

Yes, there is some luck when it comes to tipping, but the knowledge remains that if you do a fantastic job, you're more likely to "win". If I was being paid a wage for what is essentially a part time job just to make ends meet (i.e., not a career), I might just "do my job" and give mediocre service.

I guess it comes back to custom - as Xander says it is entrenched. Therefore, even the majority of your american customers who have never worked waitering job probably wouldn't be found using the word "charity."

The absolute truth is, the majority of the customers have no idea that waiters make a lesser wage. Therefore "I have to help this guy because his wage is bad" doesn't even factor into their decision to tip. It's just what one does in the US. It's seen as a normal part of doing business in a restaurant.

I think that the "charity" thing is what I have the biggest problem with conceptually, because US customers dont think of it that way.

[Anomander Rake]

@Shinrei no Shintai

I won't disagree. Its just the cultural difference in the way we look at it.

For Americans, its entrenched in them, therefore its just something they do. And the intention for them tipping for majority isn't charity, as they probably don't know waiters get paid below min wage.

Whereas for Europeans, in Restaurants were its expected, their intention would be more in the thinking its charity.

[Macros]

I think thats the bottom line, its just a culture difference, I'll never agree with americans expectation of tips, because after 5 years in the industry I don't expect tips, I'm satisfied (reasonably) with my wage and tips are a pleasant bonus but I have never relied on them in any shape or form. In my mind relying on tips is like living on a bread line, dependant on others generousity, it would annoy the shit out of me because I would feel like a leech.
I maintain my arguement, prices aren't "double" in the uk becuase of wages, tax has an awful lot to do with it, 70% of our fuel cost is tax, which drives the cost of everything else up.
I'd rather look at a menu, see my steak priced at £10 or whatever, than see it at £7 and have to consider that its really £10 because I'm expected to tip.
Tipping culture is BS, that is my final and brilliant judgement on the subject

[Shinrei]

Here's some rationale for tipping, not from me, but from the article: Economics and restaurant gratuities: determining tip rates
American Journal of Economics and Sociology, The, April, 1997 by Orn B. Bodvarsson, William A. Gibson.

"Tipping is an efficient way of pricing service when the ultimate customer has a large comparative advantage in monitoring output, and disputes over service quality are hard for an employer, such as a restaurateur, to adjudicate. Gratuities are more common in industries with high employee turn-over rates and thus frequent rewards for service are more effective in inducing continued quality service. In addition, tipping tends to occur when service is customized and cannot be resold and thus where independent third-party evaluation of service quality is unavailable.


Tipping partially separates waiters from restaurants as entities. The waiter is not simply an agent of the restaurateur, but is, to some extent, a separate entrepreneur. Customers may well tip the service though the meal itself was poor. Other customers, pleased with the food, may not tip if the service was poor."

[Macros]

Shinrei no Shintai;283964 said:

Here's some rationale for tipping, not from me, but from the article: Economics and restaurant gratuities: determining tip rates
American Journal of Economics and Sociology, The, April, 1997 by Orn B. Bodvarsson, William A. Gibson.

determining tip rates?
someone wrote an article on the subject? Dear God has the man got nothing better to do with his time, like gnaw of his left foot?

I have already stated my final and brilliant judgement, it cannot be bettered and I will not attempt to, its a culture difference, a personal distaste. I'm not argueing against tipping, I'm not saying tipping is evil, the root of all evil or the root of any evil. I'm argueing against what people have described as the "tipping culture" in America, I think its horseshit, I always will, its got to the stage where waiters feel they have been "stiffed" if they don't get a tip. No you haven't been, your employer (the owner of the establishment) is paying you a wage, regardless of its shittyness to serve people, if they happen to think you are fanfuckingtastic at serving food, they way you set that plate down might just be their bag baby, you might get something extra for yourself, but you should never expect a tip. Unless you give me a blowjob.

[Shinrei]

Macros wrote "My countries customs are better than yours."

That, my friend, is a horseshit argument. That's my final and brilliant assessment.

Thank you to Rake, who finally addressed my points.

[Macros]

way to put words in my mouth Shinrei
I've tried looking at it from your perspective and just can't agree with it, people expecting tips makes my blood boil. basing an economic model on what basically is peoples generousity it foolishness, imo, the likelyhood of us agreeing on this subject is pretty small.
And I've tried addressing your points several times but you keep asking people to address you points.

[Macros]

Shinrei no Shintai;281604 said:

Again, please address what I wrote before:


"Tipping = power to the consumer and power to the service staff to make better money! Explain to me how this doesn't make sense?!!"

Also AGAIN, the tip is "expected" if the service is good! If it is not, give a low tip or none at all.

I guess you guys/gals like the idea that customers should automatically pay higher prices in restaurants and that everyone who works a part time job should make minimum wage.

Shinrei's formula -----------------------------------
Employer pays employees less and can offer attractive prices for customers = win for employer

Employee has excellent potential to make better than minimum wage = win for employee

Customer saves on restaurant prices and can directly decide how much to share that savings with the service or not = win for the customer.

Macros ashaman baudin's formula-------------------
Employer pays more money to employees and has to charge higher prices as a result = lose

Employee makes only minimum wage = lose

Customer has no choice but to pay higher restaurant prices = lose


Regardless of how you define the word "tip", these are the points no one is addressing.

I don't agree with your formula, based on my belief that the employer should pony up and pay the man, I've said this several times but you disregard it and insist tipping is the way forward.
There is an average of 300% mark up on food and drink, paying decent wages will not cut most establishments throats or force massive price hikes, unless the owner is a greedy son of a bitch, which he must be,since hes not paying his staff properly.
The tipping "culture2 is jsut something that people have become used to and so have justified, its not customary here to leave a "bad tip" for shitty service, you just don't leave one, hell you complain to a higher authority that your waitress wouldn't give a blowjob. This is what I am trying to say, and have been trying to say for the last god-damned week, whilst trying to find the above quote I came accross another post in which you said if theres shoddy service leave a bad tip, enough bad tips and the server will get the idea (paraphrasing but its essentially close enough). Why the HELL would I leave any kind of tip, let alone a bad one if I wasn't satisfied? Tipping "culture" is BS, if the service was good, yes leave a tip, but the fact that your staff are paid so poorly, justified by the "tipping culture" it leads to an expectation that everyone WILL tip, then you complain when Johnmy foreigner doesn't tip or you get "stiffed" with a bad tip. Again, your employer pays your wages to serve people, do it, if your wages arent good enough, take it up with your employer. You should NEVER expect a tip, unless you have performed aforementioned sexual favour, I don't tip my hairdresser, shes paid to cut my hair, and she does, I don't tip my post man, hes PAID to deliver mail (though we do give him a christmas card with something nice in it for him because hes a jolly nice chap). Ergo I shouldn't be EXPECTED to tip someone for carrying plates of food to my table when they are paid to do it by said greedy owner. This is what grinds my gears, you'll cry about bad wages, not my problem, rent to pay, not my problem, children to feed, not my problem unless that romantic interlude in the back alley last year bore suprisingly handsome fruit. have I addressed my problems with your point clearly enough?

[Skywalker]

They should start a rep system for servers in restaurants... customers get to mete out positive/ negative rep on the bill instead of tips, and then the restaurant management should be obliged to pay more to the higher repped servers.

Just a thought.

And now back to Macros v. Shinrei No Shintai. Ding Ding!

[Shinrei]

Macros, I gotta give you credit for finally bringing in some sort of point, based on my system by talking about food mark up:

"There is an average of 300% mark up on food and drink, paying decent wages will not cut most establishments throats or force massive price hikes..."

Except you ruin it with the last part:

"unless the owner is a greedy son of a bitch, which he must be, since hes not paying his staff properly."

So again, it boils down to your first sentence in which you say

"based on my belief that the employer should pony up and pay the man"

This really reminds me of an argument between someone who believes in the bible creation story and someone who subscribes to the theory of evolution.

Shinrei lays out some possible evidence which he admits isn't 100% provable.

Macros counters with "but my belief is ____".

I am not disregarding your belief Macros. I understand what you are saying and that's fine. The business should pay the staff a wage so the customer doesn't have to think about it. But you don't make an arguement as to why this is BETTER.

And don't come back with "because it's charity", because I've already explained that the tipping culture is not conceptualized by american customers as charity. It's not so simple as "calling a spade a spade" because again that comes across as "belief".

[Macros]

Its better because I say it is, duh

and for the record I think we all came from a giant chicken, thus ending the eternal debate.

Our disagreement stems from viewing tipping as charity then, as I've said thats because the tipping mentality has become entrenched in America and generally accepted, here its not so therre can't be a resolution to this arguement unless you move to a more sensible country

Quote

I am not disregarding your belief Macros. I understand what you are saying and that's fine. The business should pay the staff a wage so the customer doesn't have to think about it. But you don't make an arguement as to why this is BETTER.

Theres no onus on the customer to cough up more than whats written on the menu, because yankees are used to it this probably isn't a consideration for you, but I would hate to have to look at a menu, pick my food then consider the added expense of the obligatory tip. I see a price, thats me covered for the food, its preparation and serving. Its like er......walking into a shop and picking up your shopping, going to pay for it only to find they're adding 20% for putting your shit in bags. regardless of whats better from theoretical perspective it is the employers job to pay the man, not the customer, I go out for a meal because I don't want the hassle of cooking, not to put someone through college.
You're holding to your arguement because you "believe" you're right, no different than me, you produced a nice little theaory with arrows true but I don't agree with it. If someone was to ask me for a tip (I'm suddenly reminded of rob schnieder in home alone 2) I'd tell them to go and jump, preferably from somewhere high above pointy things. Its the height of ignorance to expect that a customer will pay your wages, they're there to pay for the food, your boss pays you.
yes I'm repeating myself, I will continue until you realise it has nothing to do with economics, flowcharts, pie charts, anykindof charts, theories or diagrams. it has to do with my total personal distaste for what everyone refers to as "tipping culture" and the expectations of commonplace tipping it raises.

[Shinrei]

It's all good. I like your chicken theory.

Another thing that keeps me going in this debate though, is you use rather pointed language in expressing your distaste. I mean, it's fine if you prefer the situation where you are, but you seem to harbor an actual loathing for tipping and that's what gets my back up.

BTW, I think its weird that Europeans want American waiters to give them blowjobs to earn their tips.

[Macros]

she doesn't have to be american to earn a tip that way you fool.
the pole polishing was just a extreme description of good service deserving of a tip.
You're misinterpreting my opinion on tipping, I give tips, I'm not a miser, never have been, have no desire to be. I really just hate that its expected, like I'm obligated to give someone money for doing a job they're already being paid to do, regardless of how piss poor their wages are.
As I said acting like you're expecting a tip riles me something serious, if you do a fantastic job, clean the pipes and swallow, and say nothing of it, then yes I'll feel like that was good service and bounce a tip your way. Ask for a tip and you'll get a shoulder so cold you'll think you stepping into an igloo.

[caladanbrood]

Shinrei no Shintai;283832 said:

Yes, there is some luck when it comes to tipping, but the knowledge remains that if you do a fantastic job, you're more likely to "win". If I was being paid a wage for what is essentially a part time job just to make ends meet (i.e., not a career), I might just "do my job" and give mediocre service.

I guess it comes back to custom - as Xander says it is entrenched. Therefore, even the majority of your american customers who have never worked waitering job probably wouldn't be found using the word "charity."

The absolute truth is, the majority of the customers have no idea that waiters make a lesser wage. Therefore "I have to help this guy because his wage is bad" doesn't even factor into their decision to tip. It's just what one does in the US. It's seen as a normal part of doing business in a restaurant.

I think that the "charity" thing is what I have the biggest problem with conceptually, because US customers dont think of it that way.

I don't eat anywhere that's good enough to provide exceptional service However, I worked in a pub as a barman for ages and barely got any tips, despite being pretty damn good, though I say so myself. Was I suprised? Nuh-uh, as I still got paid enough to live on, and I didn't expect any tips anyway - when I got them, if was a nice suprise, which is what a tip should be:)

So, as our custom is, you get tipped if you're exceptional at your job (or, of course, have long blond hair and an enormous bosom ) but it's not expected. Once it is always expected to tip, it becomes charity, because even if it's a bit crap, you still tip, just a bit less.

[Optimus Prime]

Don't tip if the service is bad, I'm not asking for that.

A tip is a reward. If I was a slack ass loser who couldn't do anything right, I'd be getting stiffed left and right. I, however, made 300 bucks today

No Europeans in house, of course

j/k