[Vengeance]

Macros, on 29 September 2010 - 08:19 PM, said:

no

not joining in

just back from the states and the service was fucking awful, apart from McDonalds.

Only good service we got was in the stop in Toronto, oh wait that's in Canada.

Bar staff were as slow as a wet week and ignorant as hell for the most, and when I didn't tip/ left a small tip I got the dirtiest looks ever, as if my name was joseph and I offered to let their kids play in my basement.

You can to the states???? And you didn't come to the Chicago MEET UP!!!!! Also you ate at Mcdonalds??? Why???? Did you try being nice and playing up your Irish accent. That kind of thing usually works wonders even with the most surly of servers. But seriously you went to Toronto and didn't come to Chicago...sigh...

[Shinrei]

See Mac, now isn't it nice to pay less money on food and drink and not pay extra for tip if the service sucks?

[Tapper]

Shinrei, on 30 September 2010 - 03:35 AM, said:

See Mac, now isn't it nice to pay less money on food and drink and not pay extra for tip if the service sucks?

He did not refuse to tip because the service sucked, he didn't tip out of principle

[Macros]

no, I was disgusted when the dick of a barman expected a tip and treated me like a scumbag because I didn't tip him.
His short ignorant demeanor and taking at least 5 minutes to pony up 3 bottles of beer when the bar was empty did not warrant a tip, the beer was outrageously priced as it was (so shove your cheaper argument up your ass) This is what I mean by tipping culture, its now an expectation. Its not a right, its not something you have to receive because your boss pays you the square route of a hens tooth, its not a fucking wage, you don't get it for serving me a beer. you get it for putting on a broadway show whilst doing it.
As I have said time and time again, tips have become an expectation under this tipping "culture" and service, sorry to tell you, ain't that hot over there, hell I got better service in walkabout today and its a prepay at the bar type of affair, so the servers chance of a tip is pretty much nil.

grah, go away, I'm already in a bad mood.

bastards

[Macros]

and I was in Toronto for a grand total of 3 hours, it was a flight change


ETA - also, two of the restaurants had the tax on the bill and a service charge which was about the 15-20% mark. Service did not warrant that in the slightest.

This post has been edited by Macros: 30 September 2010 - 08:56 PM

[Shinrei]

Bartenders recieve a wage, they don't depend on tips. One asshole bartender in an overpriced bar does not prove your point.

[Macros]

No many incompetant servers in many places, still expecting a tip for woeful service, or actually putting it on the fucking bill does

[Shinrei]

I won't argue that you can get good service without tipping. It happens nearly 100% of the time in Japan. I also won't say that you automatically get great service anytime there is an expected tip. It should help service, but it doesn't always. Then there are countries like China, which is a bargaining country, and the service there is generally pretty awful.

What you have to realize about our lovely debate, Macros, is I've been arguing from the viewpoint of the worker. As a former waiter in a tipping country, I prefered to work for tips than for a wage, simply because it meant I made more money. I worked for $6.50 an hour at a coffee shop and $12 an hour as part of a crew demolishing/remodeling the inside of an old synagogue. The money I made from waitering was far better, and didn't require even a highschool degree. And because I was making this money in a culture where it's normal, and the vast majority don't mind, I wasn't taking advantage of anyone, nor was I being taken advantage of by my employer.

The system only breaks when you introduce someone who has some sort of principled stand against tipping.

[Grimjust Bearegular]

Morgoth, on 10 February 2008 - 01:02 PM, said:

yeah, here too.. We generally tip at resturants, but that's it. I've never given tip to a hotel employe, and rarely rarely tip at a pub. This is not because i'm cheap in any way, but because we don't do that sort of thing here.

I'm quite often in the US and I do notice the seeming demand for tip. I do know the sallery is lower over there, but I'd be damned if I'm tipping someone who acts like a bunch of pricks. If one wants money from me, they have to deserve it. If their sallery is low, surely that's a reason for them to work for the extra cash?

I second that.

Tipping is generally not necessary here, as the wages are pretty high. If the food or service is exceptionally good, I'll tip, but usually I don't.

[Shinrei]

Actually, I have to admit I don't get tipping if it's to someone making a wage. I gotta admire the Japanese, who will hand a tip back to you and act all confused. I have little motivation to tip bartenders or coffee shop people, and I don't remember tipping anyone when I was in the UK.

My wife and I do, however, tip people who are unfortunate enough to handle our luggage (taxi/bus drivers, hotel porters) because when we travel internationally we're generally loaded down with gifts like bottles of wine that make our luggage a real bear to lift.

[Grimjust Bearegular]

Macros, on 30 September 2010 - 08:51 PM, said:

no, I was disgusted when the dick of a barman expected a tip and treated me like a scumbag because I didn't tip him.
His short ignorant demeanor and taking at least 5 minutes to pony up 3 bottles of beer when the bar was empty did not warrant a tip, the beer was outrageously priced as it was (so shove your cheaper argument up your ass) This is what I mean by tipping culture, its now an expectation. Its not a right, its not something you have to receive because your boss pays you the square route of a hens tooth, its not a fucking wage, you don't get it for serving me a beer. you get it for putting on a broadway show whilst doing it.
As I have said time and time again, tips have become an expectation under this tipping "culture" and service, sorry to tell you, ain't that hot over there, hell I got better service in walkabout today and its a prepay at the bar type of affair, so the servers chance of a tip is pretty much nil.

grah, go away, I'm already in a bad mood.

bastards

I hear ya!

[cauthon]

I'll tipp if the service and food was good. No matter how high the wage is. But, admittedly, I'll tipp a bit more in the US than in Europe.

[Tsundoku]

More fuel for the fire:

http://www.news.com....r-1225939999663

--------------------------------

The sinister side to tipping in the US

* Rex Jory
* From: The Advertiser
* October 18, 2010 8:44AM

America is now the land of the fee when it comes to tipping. Source: The Australian

LET'S be careful. Very careful. Tipping, the gentle art of voluntarily giving a financial reward for good service, has been taken to a sinister and dangerous level in the US.

America is no longer the land of the free.

It is the land of the fee.

A few years ago I lived in the US. That's history. Things have changed.

I was recently in New York and Washington for less than a week and in many cases tipping was no longer a voluntary payment for good service but a compulsory payment to get service.

The change has been subtle and insidious. Americans are conditioned to tipping.

They apparently accept it without question or protest.

But Australia should be alert and suspicious about the changing intent and philosophy of tipping.

If it is true that Australia adopts the worst elements of American culture - anything from McDonald's and Oprah to The Bold and the Beautiful - then the rapid expansion of tipping cannot be discounted.

It mustn't happen.

Yet international tourists and other visitors are feeding the habit and setting the example.

Here are a few examples to support my concern that tipping is no longer a legitimate reward for good service but a blatant bribe to get things done.

Example 1: Because of a delay out of Melbourne to Los Angeles, I missed the connecting flight to New York.

Someone I happened to know on the flight went to the American Airlines desk, explained his problem and put his passport on the counter, a $20 note peeping out of the pages.
The AA clerk pocketed the money and gave my friend a business-class ticket to New York.

I waited another four hours for a Delta Airlines flight.

That was clearly a bribe, not a tip.

Example 2: After the first night in my five-star Washington hotel my room was serviced but my bed was not made up. I could have complained, but instead the next morning I left $2 on the pillow.

The room was magnificently serviced, the bed made with clean sheets and a complimentary bowl of fruit left on the coffee table.

Tip or bribe?

Example 3: At an elegant cocktail party I asked for a glass of champagne.
"Sorry,'' said the lady behind the bar, "there's no more champagne.'' I dropped two $1 notes on the bar.

Within two minutes the girl came over and gave me a glass of champagne.

Tip or bribe?

Example 4: A friend who went to a hairdresser in Washington was handed an envelope and told: ``Please put a tip in here and drop it in the box on the counter.''

Never mind how good the hairstyle was. Tip or bribe?

In some cases, restaurants automatically include a 15 per cent tip on your credit-card bill. Never mind how good or bad the service was.

I could go on.

The examples of tipping emerge in almost everything you do.

A familiar story.

"Sorry, we have no booking in that name.'' Produce $10.

"Oh, of course, come this way.''

I have three fears about tipping First, this trend - which I am sure many people find unbelievable - is gently being introduced into Australia.

Second, from little things, big things grow.

People like Senator Nick Xenophon should look at this growing trend from tips to bribery and corruption.

The link is as obvious as it is reprehensible.

Third, if the Americans are prepared to accept trivial corruption in their streets, restaurants and service industries, why would it not spread to higher levels of business?

In Wall Street Gordon Gekko summed it up: Greed is good.

Where does that stop?

Australia should watch with alarm the spreading culture of tipping in the US.

I give you the tip.

Whatever it takes, this practice should be kept out of Australia.

TIPS ON TIPPING IN THE US
- The Eye Witness Travel Guide says tipping in the United States is expected for most services.

- A 15 per cent tip is expected in restaurants and in some cases the recommended tip may be 20 per cent.

- A tip of $1 per bag is expected for anyone who helps with your bag at an airport. At a hotel, $2 would be expected.

- Bartenders serving drinks expect 50c to $1 for every drink served. Once you pay the continuing service becomes exceptional.

- If you visit a hair salon or hairdresser, 10 per cent of the bill is the minimum expected tip.

- Taxi drivers expect a minimum of 15 per cent tip on the fare. Unless the tip is good enough the driver will not assist with luggage.

[Shinrei]

Tipping as a culture war is ridiculous.

And bringing up cases of obvious bribery has nothing to do with tipping.

The only example that's shocking is the 5-star hotel one, but something else has to be going on there. They make up your beds in 1 star hotels and dont expect tips, so that doesn't make sense.

[Vengeance]

First off this

Quote

At an elegant cocktail party I asked for a glass of champagne.
"Sorry,'' said the lady behind the bar, "there's no more champagne.'' I dropped two $1 notes on the bar.

Within two minutes the girl came over and gave me a glass of champagne.

Tip or bribe?

is absolute bullshit.

2 dollars wouldn't buy you shit. A ten spot maybe. But 2 dollars give me a break.

[HoosierDaddy]

Quote

At an elegant cocktail party I asked for a glass of champagne.

Rule #1. The more expensive the place or surrounding, the more likely extravagant tips are expected, and even more likely required {especially if it is at a restaurant.) Keeping up with the Jones is expensive in America, where wasting gross amounts of money has a culture all of its own.

Also, I've never tipped at a hotel. Ever. I've been in good ones and horrendous ones. They all do the turnover unless you tell them to leave your room alone, so I don't understand tipping for maid service, unless the place was purposefully trying to manipulate non-Americans into parting with their money when they shouldn't. Which is a time honored tourist practice.

[RodeoRanch]

Ha, a 2 dollar tip getting you excellent service. Not bloody likely.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

My policy is if I'm going out somewhere (pub related) that I'm not known well at, I'll usually epically over-tip on the first round, and then I get the best service ever, and don't really have to tip the rest of the night.

[MTS]

I don't think I've ever tipped anyone. Ever. Not through lack of experience or being cheap, it just isn't really expected here. Many times people have actually given me back money if I accidentally gave them too much.

[Mentalist]

As someone from back East who lived in North America for a while (though tipping in Canada is nowhere near as rampant as the states--I only tip in restaurants, in bars, occasionally and taxi drivers), I totally agree with Shin that it's a cultural thing.

put simply, Europeans dislike hidden fees.
Shin in your oft-touted example, of "$23 on the menu or $20 with $3 service charge), I will wholeheartedly agree with Mac that i'd rather see the $23 up front. asking me for more afterwards feels like trickery.

and i'm not saying this to seem cheap--I've tipped throughout 4 years of undergrad, being a poor, non-working student. I generally eyeball it to 12.5% (which is the magic number told to me by a guy who actually was a server), or add 10 percent to the bill and then round it off. If service was good or great, i'd add a fiver on top--because I believe in "tip as reward". but the minor, "expected" tips--they might as well be another tax, as far as i'm concerned.

now, whilst I never worked in the service industry (though I did a shitload of customer service interactions, so I know all about "dealing with those asshole customers"), it's still hard to see the fact that people work under minimum wage and expect me to compensate them for their choice.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 19 October 2010 - 04:42 AM