[Venerus]

Some small group of humans......like, say, 1300 children who are all now shadow-aspected!? I don't actually remember what happened to them -- are they still around? Wonder if they could become the new residents. Are they guarding the throne? Gah. Faster, re-read, faster!

[Aptorian]

I think they are posted here and there where ST has need for them, a bunch of them were in the cave with the first throne and died under the attack by the edur.

I don't know if they are shadowaspected though, why should they, rather they have the same status as acolytes in the shadow cults of the old empire days.

[Venerus]

Aptorian;250586 said:

I don't know if they are shadow aspected though, why should they, rather they have the same status as acolytes in the shadow cults of the old empire days.

Well, the one with Apt *seems* to be, at least. From the end of DHG, when Cot is chatting with Apt + Panek in their little fragment of KE:

---
Panek: "When you approached, you walked through a stone wall and then the trees, rippling the ghost world as if ignorant of its right to dwell here"
...
Cotillion: "I've often wondered why the Hounds never run straight."

Later:
'A moment later shadows engulfed [Cotillion]. Panek continued staring. "Does he imagine," he asked his mother, "that he now walks unseen?"
---


At the very least, he can see the shadow world the same way hounds and shadow-aspected demons can. Still, you're right, doesn't necessarily mean he's shadow aspected himself, I suppose. Made a bit of an intuitive leap, I did.

[Abyss]

Venerus;250583 said:

Some small group of humans......like, say, 1300 children who are all now shadow-aspected!? I don't actually remember what happened to them -- are they still around? Wonder if they could become the new residents. Are they guarding the throne? Gah. Faster, re-read, faster!

Well, they WERE guarding the First Throne, until an army of Letherii and Edur and then Icarium came along. Some survived, not sure of numbers as of post TB.

As for aspects, keep in mind there are degrees, and 'flavours' of shadow - the Hounds, thousands or so years old, are connected to an entirely earlier evolution of the warrens than Cot and ST took over. Apt and the other shadow demons could be of that era originally, hence why Panek sees what Cotillion doesn't...

- Abyss, the Shadow Nose...

[Aptorian]

Indeed. I think panek, alone among these 1300 is the special one, because, as per Apts instructions, ST gave panek the eye of an Aptorian.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Venerus;250594 said:

Well, the one with Apt *seems* to be, at least. From the end of DHG, when Cot is chatting with Apt + Panek in their little fragment of KE:

---
Panek: "When you approached, you walked through a stone wall and then the trees, rippling the ghost world as if ignorant of its right to dwell here"
...
Cotillion: "I've often wondered why the Hounds never run straight."

Later:
'A moment later shadows engulfed [Cotillion]. Panek continued staring. "Does he imagine," he asked his mother, "that he now walks unseen?"
---


At the very least, he can see the shadow world the same way hounds and shadow-aspected demons can. Still, you're right, doesn't necessarily mean he's shadow aspected himself, I suppose. Made a bit of an intuitive leap, I did.

Those three lines triggered a huge avalanche of crazy theories in my mind, but to spare you the details, is there anything that expands on those lines...like something to suggest a ghost world within the realm of shadow? A warren within a warren? or does it just mean that ST and Cotillon are not attuned to seeing the ghost stuff like stuff actually aspected to shadow (apts, panek, hounds)

[Aptorian]

It means they're not as attuned, allthough, I don't know if Cotillions "blindness" also affects ST.

The question is if Cotillion isn't actually able to see these things, he just doesn't know how to use his powers right. I know it's weak him not having full control after ten years, but still.

And there are shadows within shadows inside the realm. I think the best example of this was Apsalars travels in BH.

[Abyss]

I don't think it's a question of use as much as perspective. Cotillion sees the warren one way; Panek, the demons and Hounds see it another.
Edur might see still another.

- Abyss, needs eyedrops.

[Venerus]

The only thing that makes me wary of chalking up the difference between Cotillion and Panek's views of the warren to mere perspective is that Cotillion is genuinely interested in Panek "teaching" him. That sounds to me like Cot thinks there's some fundamental truth to be taught, and that Panek might be the one to teach him.

On the other hand, warrens have been compared to gods in that their character changes with the demands of the worshippers/users/etc. So, who knows, maybe humans using Shadow has impressed a new reality on it that is just as legit as the old way. There isn't much more to go on; maybe you're right and the warren really *is* one way for Cot and modern folk, and maybe the warren really *is* another way for the demons/hounds/Panek.

[Mentalist]

Venerus;249541 said:

Nothing specific comes to mind on that one, actually. I guess I just assumed all of 7C was once First Empire. Is it necessary for the theory to work that the First encompassed it, though? Mappo and Icarium find all the Imass remains in Raraku, don't they? Icarium could have walked from the Jhag Azath over to Raraku, or been popped out there after the warren kerploded.

Edit: finally, my DG is back! The quote I was looking for, between Icarium and Mappo (p 414):

(Icarium):"Who destroyed this city, I wonder?"
(Mappo): You did, Icarium, yet even in your rage a part of you recognized what you had built, and left it intact
(Icarium):"They had great power, whoever they were. T'lan Imass arrived here, sought to drive the enemy back -- an old alliance between the denizens of this city and the Silent Host. Their shattered bones lie buried in the sand beneath us. In their thousands. What force was there that could do such a thing, Mappo?"

well, this quote suggests that The Imass came to HELP the people of the First Empire--not slaughter them when they mass-turned into soletaken...we might be talking about different occurences here--I mean, Iccy did a lot of wandering throughout his life... for all we know, the First Throne could have been hidden in that city.

[Venerus]

Possibly, yes, but there was some... weird blood between the Imass and the First Empire. From HoC, chap. 21:

"Alas, humans viewed empire...differently [than the Imass]. And their vision did not include the T'lan Imass. Thus, betrayal. Then war. An unequal contest, but the T'lan Imass were reluctant to annihilate their mortal children. And so they left -- only to return with the shattering of the warren"

So it seems the First Empire and the T'lan Imass were buddies, then the First Empire chased them off... it's within the realm of possibility that the Imass still honored their side of the bargain -- they didn't kill the humans outright when they could have, maybe they returned to protect their children from Icarium. Or maybe the Soletaken/D'ivers event only affected some of the First Empire, and the T'lan were protecting the still-human Firsties from the Soletaken/D'ivers.

No, I don't have any evidence of that -- it's just speculation. Sort of post-hoc-ing (HoC! ha) it to cobble together some way in which the T'lan were there at the same time as Icarium, but also that it was at the time of the shattering. It's a weak effort, I know

Edit: actually, re-reading Midnight Tides, the Errant has some interesting things to say. Since Lether was affected by the Ritual of the Beast, one might be able to see that as a reflection of the events of the FE on 7c. So, on Lether, not everyone was affected, and the Soletaken were driven off to become Jheck. So, it's possible that there were regular humans who needed protecting on 7c, too.

[Lisheo]

I think that the Imass arrived to protect the colonies of the First Empire from the chaos brewing in the core of it. It seems to me that Dessembalackis was completely insane, I mean, really off the walls... I wonder if the REAL reason the Imass were chased off was cus he wanted to complete his ritual free of interference. Remember, the information were given by SE is often all simply a character's interpretation of events, not the whole truth. "We tore a warren apart" said in the tone it was, remorseful, in my mind, suggests that the participants in the Beast Ritual didnt know what would happen, but if Dessimbelackis did know and did intend for this to happen, then is it possible he WANTED the warren destroyed? I mean, he attempted to create equivalents of the Elder Gods in the Trolh'barahl, so, he was pretty damn cocky and confident. Was he trying to change the order of the world? He wanted to be immortal... And lets face it, Iccy has a very strong sense of right and wrong, when sane, if he viewed Dessimbelackis's plan as evil, he would let lose, so its possible he was a factor in the destruction of the warren too... We dont have enough dates to triangulate his location at the time, so Im just thinking of motives.

[tiam]

Aptorian;248266 said:

Actually Scabby started what would lead to the sundering. I think he merely wounded it... the quotes are very vague. I'm guessing dragons and ascendants did the real destruction.

As for the question whether it was a shadow fragment that was reshattered at the soletaken ritual or at the Tremolo Azath... good question. I don't recall if Gothos for example actually says "it was a fragment of Kurald Emurhlan".

If the First Empire was messing about with Shadow fragments it might be connected to another mystery. The hounds of shadow. Perhaps what ever Dessimbelackis was up to with the Deragoth involved shadow and when he did what ever he did to become a D'ivers an unconnected shadow of the Deragoth was created .

Ill go with this. Scabby hated for wounding and thereefore opening it. The battles beetween Rake and KIL against the dragons and other usurpers. I think they were annoyed at Scabby because he had set the precedent

Venerus. Also that quote suggests that the sundering co incides with the first empires demise therefore suggesting that the sundering caused a possible ritual, to make soletaken citezens, to go awry and possibly spread and take the heart out of the First Empire.

[Mentalist]

Lisheo;251276 said:

I think that the Imass arrived to protect the colonies of the First Empire from the chaos brewing in the core of it.

well, I don't think we can consider any part of 7C a "colony" of the First Empire--it was created there...
Once again, we KNOW exactly where Iccy went crazy--in the Jhag Odhan where the Azath used to be. And, as I mentioned Earlier, we have no knowlege whether it was part of the First Empire or not. So we can't prove/disprove it being used for the Ritual of the Beast, but I find it unlikely, since there aren't realy any city ruins in Jhag Odhan.

the problem is, we have no way of knowing WHEN iccy went insane relative to the Ritual of the Beast. I tend to think it was long ways before the ritual and the founding of the Empire. That's just me though

[Aptorian]

Ritual of the Beast, I like that name... I will remember that.

[Venerus]

I think I've mentioned it before, but since I got no answer, I'll pose it again -- is it really germane where Icarium's rage started? Jhag Odhan and Raraku are close enough physically, spiritually, etc-ally, and Icarium's rages sound like they used to be lasting. I don't think it pokes any holes in the theory that Icarium might have moved around a bit after blowing up an Azath and hurting a warren.

[Aptorian]

No, two different occurences. My mental map isn't that great but the Odhan is an enormous area in the west and Raraku lies in the east.

You are comparing his destruction of that holy city with the azath incident right?

[Mentalist]

well you see, the thing is (the way I figure it), Icarium's rage is only good for as long as he has something to hit around. If he's in the desert in the middle of nowhere, he won't just start walking east, hitting sand under his feet while keening, untill he got to the outskirts of the First Empire.
not to mention that the explosion of the Azath could have just knocked him out...

EDIT: 800th post...

[Venerus]

@apt: I don't know that I'm comparing events. I think I'm trying to say that it's not hard to imagine they're related. I understand that Icarium didn't kill thousands of T'lan Imass in the same breath as he did the Azath, I'm just suggesting the two could be part of a larger convergence. Ex: Icarium's rage directs him at the next biggest thing, destroyed Azath dumps him out in front of the edge of the shattered warren in Raraku, etc etc.

@kud: You're right, we don't know the specifics. We only know that Gothos seems to think Icarium was on a crazy bender when he blew up the Azath. The Raraku-Odhan "proximity" came to mind (as does Icarium being move about) because the Azath houses are (acc Crokus) "Connected to everything, everywhere" -- I mean, in DHG they discover the Azath can transport people anywhere, and Mappo and Iskaral both pop out on 7C (granted, they probably both wanted to go there, blah blah blah, point is, Azath houses can move pips around and dump them in 7C). If Icarium blew up an Azath, I can imagine some of the teleporty effects moving him elsewhere -- perhaps to or with a piece of the warren it was anchoring, ie to Raraku.

My point is just that Jhag Odhan and Raraku's physical distance isn't *that* great (still on 7C) and they're unified in both being (sort of) holy deserts, so the notion that Icarium blew up a house in the Jhag Odhan and then ended up in Raraku doesn't seem super far-fetched to me. It's certainly something that needs to be explained, but I don't think it's particularly damning at the moment -- we just need more info one way or the other.

[Mentalist]

well.. untill I have further evidence to damn it, this theory desrves a righ to exist, lol
However, I still think we are looking at two events separated in time by a LOT (like hundreds, if not thousands of years)