[Aptorian]

I don't think many ascendants think it possible to heal KE. The sundering of the warren was something new and scary. I doubt it's happened since and as such, not many would have an idea how to go about assembling the warren.

Perhaps the fact that (probably) the biggest chunk of KE is used in the Houses system, is what is stopping KE from healing itself.

[Optimus Prime]

I think it can be healed

With the power of Jesus, of course.

But seriously...I think it can be healed. Perhaps it is going to take a brand new start...a complete white-wash of the slate.

[Mentalist]

Now, see here, im somewhat confused
We are told that the Waren of Shadow is the biggest piece of KE...
And then in MT we are told that what the Edur found on Letheras is the biggest chunk--which one's which?
no t to mention that he warren of shadow's missing the lush bloodwood jungles and the like...

[Aptorian]

The shadow warren is a big place, perhaps like Thyrlann and Liosan, there's a little pocket inside the shadowrealm filled with deadwood forests and barbarian huts, stone tempels and people watching the shore.

[Optimus Prime]

yeah we have no idea how big these other warrens/realms are. Conceivably, some of these warrens/realms are the size of "Wu"...others are much larger...possibly infinitely so...while others are the size of the CG's...or even smaller

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Aptorian;249048 said:

The shadow warren is a big place, perhaps like Thyrlann and Liosan, there's a little pocket inside the shadowrealm filled with deadwood forests and barbarian huts, stone tempels and people watching the shore.

Hmmm, remember the SR is dying? Is that because of the Shadow Throne being wrongly occupied, do you think? or is it because of every gateway being an open wound?

I reckon if Scabby or another Edur took the T of S, then the SR would be revitalised. Perhaps Shaddy and Cotillion are about to get their comeuppance.

[Optimus Prime]

Edgewalker..though the confusing quote from NoK throws a monkey wrench in that theory.

Spoiler

When he says he is a "slave of shadow in his own way" I think it means that he cannot stay away from it...and that is what drives him to continually attempt to have the throne...though for some reason he cannot hold it...perhaps a past wrong?

[Aptorian]

Shadow is dying? Still...?

Who ever sits on the throne doesn't effect a warren, unless the occupant intentionally wanted to damage the warren, like say... the cripple gods crew. Or perhaps a god witha different aspect that opposes shadow.

[Candybars]

Xander;249067 said:

Edgewalker..though the confusing quote from NoK throws a monkey wrench in that theory.

Spoiler

When he says he is a "slave of shadow in his own way" I think it means that he cannot stay away from it...and that is what drives him to continually attempt to have the throne...though for some reason he cannot hold it...perhaps a past wrong?

Spoiler

I don't think that he continually attempts to have anything. He held the throne, yes, but lost it. And instead of facing imprisonment in the realm, he has managed an out by opting to walk the borders and attempt to keep interlopers out. However, he sees little distinction in actual imprisonment and his current lot. This is what he means about being "A slave to shadow in his own way."

EDIT: Grammar

[Venerus]

More "evidence" in a related quote from HoC, pointed out by girlfriend this evening. It refers to the First Empire:

From HoC, 808, pped:
"The T'lan Imass were reluctant to annihilate their mortal children. And so they left--
Only to return [to the First Empire] with the shattering of the warren, when the chaos erupted with the ritual of Soletaken and D'ivers"

Implication: the shattering of [some warren] in Raraku caused the Soletaken/D'ivers freak-out, and drew the Imass in great numbers. That sounds like a great opportunity for Icarium's Imass-icide in 7C. Implicates Icarium as the cause for the First Empire's fall, which might explain Lether's trepidation at seeing him again.

[Optimus Prime]

Weren't the Imass basically making sure that the Soletaken/D'ivers didn't reach a near omnipotent level of power?

Almost like pulling a FA move with the whole idea of balance....

[Wry]

this is very plausible. The First empire are preparing a ritual to ease the attaining of soletakenness by tapping into a chunk of KE in someway. this chunk is large and stable because it's anchored by an Azath. At the same time icarium is tearing up this azath to get to daddy. he kills the azath, shattering the warren causing the Empire ritual to go screwy and at the same time drive Icarium mental. The T'lan arrive to clean up the mess and icarium, on his first bender, wades through them.

It fits SE style of convergence.

Edit: it also occurs to me that the Imass got involved because the FE were trying to mirror their ritual, joining their whole race to a warren like the imass did, just with different effect.

[Optimus Prime]

The different effect being total domination. It has been said that the combined might of Soletaken/D'ivers would rise to near omnipotence....a race of super-ascendant shape shifters...scary.

I like the idea of an earlier convergence...there were probably countless instances of this throughout history in Wu....and every time a huge event/convergence occurred...the shape or state of the world was affected.

[amphibian]

Candybars;249092 said:

Spoiler

I don't think that he continually attempts to have anything. He held the throne, yes, but lost it. And instead of facing imprisonment in the realm, he has managed an out by opting to walk the borders and attempt to keep interlopers out. However, he sees little distinction in actual imprisonment and his current lot. This is what he means about being "A slave to shadow in his own way."

Spoiler

I believe Edgewalker to be solely concerned with dragons. He seems almost uninterested in anything else and possibly views the survival of Shadow as a means to keep his dragons grounded and intact. It's just one of my theories though.

[Optimus Prime]

amphibian;249451 said:

Spoiler

I believe Edgewalker to be solely concerned with dragons. He seems almost uninterested in anything else and possibly views the survival of Shadow as a means to keep his dragons grounded and intact. It's just one of my theories though.

Spoiler

I don't know. I think in his heart he wants Shadow to be healed and full...whether or not he is in control. I think he would take control again if he could. We need more on his actual race (I know most think he is Edur) but it would help. That and more Edgewalker PoV's.

[Mentalist]

Hmmm.. the notion of a convergence is neat, but do we have any proof for/against First Empire actually encompassing the Jhag Odhan at any point?

[Venerus]

Nothing specific comes to mind on that one, actually. I guess I just assumed all of 7C was once First Empire. Is it necessary for the theory to work that the First encompassed it, though? Mappo and Icarium find all the Imass remains in Raraku, don't they? Icarium could have walked from the Jhag Azath over to Raraku, or been popped out there after the warren kerploded.

Edit: finally, my DG is back! The quote I was looking for, between Icarium and Mappo (p 414):

(Icarium):"Who destroyed this city, I wonder?"
(Mappo): You did, Icarium, yet even in your rage a part of you recognized what you had built, and left it intact
(Icarium):"They had great power, whoever they were. T'lan Imass arrived here, sought to drive the enemy back -- an old alliance between the denizens of this city and the Silent Host. Their shattered bones lie buried in the sand beneath us. In their thousands. What force was there that could do such a thing, Mappo?"

[Abyss]

skir;248703 said:

you know what's weird? that there's still all these floating shards of KE, but the throne of shadow itself has relocated to 'Wu'...

Somewhere, someone says that the warren of shadow is human aspected now. Probably a reflection of the various warrens that are human accessible since the elder warrens evolved. Or something.

Note that not every broke warren is necessarily KE - Gothos' comment re Iccy trashing the Azathn could have just ref'd the Azath itself.

- Abyss, skipping the usual warren zevon joke...

[Venerus]

Abyss;250314 said:

Note that not every broke warren is necessarily KE - Gothos' comment re Iccy trashing the Azath could have just ref'd the Azath itself.

It seems that Gothos thinks destroying the Azath had a direct effect on a warren, not just on the Azath:

"Wounded warrens are a dangerous thing. Wounding one is far more so. My son sought a way to free me from the Azath. He failed. And was... damaged." -DHG (near the end)

Seems to imply the events are related.

[Lisheo]

Hmm... it looks like Shadow has been split multiple times. If you consider the Scabby "sundering" as cracking KE (he removed the Edur Royals and then left, sort of leaves it with no guardians), and then Iccy/FE shattering it completely, and finally the different shards evolving, eg becoming the Whirlwind, or the chaos ridden piece the Edur use, or the human Shadow that ST and Cotty use, then I reckon the healing needs to take place in at least three stages:
1- the ousting of alien powers eg the CG and Sha'ik
2- The drawing together of KE pieces, which would have to be done by an Elder God, id say.
3- Re-instating new guardians/ residents, not just prisoners. It seems to me that Shadow now is just a playground for Ascendants, imprisoning beings in it and misusing it.
So... The war among the pantheon clears away the pretenders to the Shadow Throne, Krul, or Draconus, or someone draws the pieces together with a massive sacrifice, and then some small group of humans moves in under ST and Cotty lol. Thats my theory.