[D'rek]

depending on just how highly ranked WJ was at this time, he could indeed be detached from the BBs, perhaps a Fist overseeing a whole company of the 3rd, but the BBs have been removed from that company and sent to Genebackis to assist that campaign. However, I don't think this can be the case either because this would mean that WJ hasn't been "busted down" to sergeant yet and when they first get the Moranth munitions it is stated he is a sergeant.

Any chance someone can provide the quote that says that there were munitions at Dassem's fall in Y'ghatan? After all, we've seen that there are other incendiaries in the world, particularly in Y'ghatan...

[Zorland]

I think this is all the reference to blowing things up at Y'Ghatan.

Quote

Here the Imperial sappers had done their work, undermining and blasting entire sections

.

NoK 153

[Kurt Montandon]

Given Ganoes' quote, it seems likely that the Mouse scene occurred at least a week or two after the actual battle at Y'Ghatan - he mentions that he heard the news "before we left the capital," meaning Unta, which implies a journey from Unta to Malaz City, and for a common wine merchant I doubt that journey was by warren.

The real potential contradiction is that Whiskeyjack was supposed to have been one of the commanders at Y'Ghatan, per Temper's POV, but still somehow winds up with the rest of the Bridgeburners at the Mouse. So, I suspect that he was brought there by warren after Y'Ghatan, to take over the Bridgeburners and their new recruits, in the meantime of which Korbolo Dom was in charge of the Bridgeburners, whatever they were up to before Malaz.

I suspect, strongly, that the notion of Moranth munitions being used in the Seven Cities (either the initial conquest or the sub-continent-wide Aren rebellion) is simply a miscommunication between Erikson and Esslemont, and should be properly ignored as such. Sappers prior to munitions probably were in their traditional role of martial engineers, and may even have had crude blasting powders available to them. And by the time of NoK, a year after Y'Ghatan, sappers bearing the stigmata of munitions use may have been a common sight in the Malazan army, though Temper's memory of them having been used in Seven Cities is, as above, an Esslemont mis-step, rather than an Eriksonian one.

[D'rek]

Zorland;240649 said:

Quote:
Here the Imperial sappers had done their work, undermining and blasting entire sections

See, this is a very important distinction as it doesn't specifically mention that the "blasting" was from moranth munitions. Though we haven't heard of explosives being used by sappers before the moranth ones, it doesn't mean they didn't have some prior method of "blasting". I suspect that Dassem's fall took place while the BBs were in Malaz City getting ready to ship out to Genebackis.
Who knows, maybe Korbolo couldn't deal effectively with the clamour in Malaz City so they called in WJ by warren to replace him, thus fueling Korbolo's hatred of WJ.

[Aptorian]

There has been mention of other "explosives" than moranth munitions. I can't remember where, but they were known to the Malazan empire I'm sure.

I just think I remember the term sharpers used in NoK. When the soldiers surge in to retrieve Dassem and the two remaning sword members at Y'ghatan.

[D'rek]

Aptorian;241014 said:

There has been mention of other "explosives" than moranth munitions. I can't remember where, but they were known to the Malazan empire I'm sure.

At least two I can think of are the Y'ghatan wine-stuff, though that's more like a flamer, and I think there's also mention of some explosive properties of otatoral in weird circumstances, so I agree there's definitely other boom-thingies out there.

Aptorian;241014 said:

I just think I remember the term sharpers used in NoK. When the soldiers surge in to retrieve Dassem and the two remaning sword members at Y'ghatan.

Maybe the term 'sharper' was used for something else? or perhaps in a strange reference that seems like it's talking about 7C before Dassem's fall but is really just convoluded and is actually talking about years later?

[Aptorian]

I don't have a book so there's no way to know.

Hint, hint, nudge, nudge NoK owners.

[Zorland]

I reread the passage in Night of Knives where Temper remembers the fall of the sword, and there is definitely no mention of sharpers. The only mention of explosives that I could find was the brief line from above, where they talk about breaking through the first wall (before the Sword even entered the battle).

You can read the passage where the remnants of the Sword are relieved by the regulars at pg159-160. Unless, of course, you have no book. Here's a bit of it:

Quote

Surgen glared past him: his eyes widened; he yelled incoherently. Temper, his vision blackening, felt his grip weaken. Surgen wrenched free, backed away. A tide of Malazan regulars swept over them

I think SE and ICE got this right, and that the only mention of Moranth munitions is from the readers.

[Abyss]

problem: there were three 7C Campaigns.
The original conquest by Kel, a rebelion that was put down (possilbly more than once), and the third that was cut short when Poliel killed the continent.

So it may be that Dassem fell not during the ORIGINAL 7C campaign but during a rebelion.

- Abyss, as default, could just use 'blasted' very loosely...

[Aptorian]

That can't be right. Don't you think that the empire would have wiped out all the holy falahds(sp?) on the first run.

Hmm... something to ponder this.

[D'rek]

well there is reference to past "rebellions" before the one that starts in DG, but these could often be referring to long-past history in 7C. Personally I think that the Malazan conquest was very prolonged but, since 7C was rather broken up into lots of small 'nations' at the time, there was not a united 7C vs Malazan uprising. There may have been isolated cases of desert warriors striking at conquered Malaz territory throughout the long campaign. I suspect there would have been a large such-surge when Dassem fell. Once 7C was conquered though, I don't think there was any real rebellion until Dryjhna. Otherwise Laseen would have been better prepared for the rebellion right?
For Dassem to have not fallen during the original conquest of 7C just doesn't seem to spark with my idea of the timeline. There's still plenty of flexibility with when he fell in relation to the whole length of the conquest though. My bet is at the very end.

[Zorland]

Wasn't it implied in DG that Coltaine led a previous, failed rebellion before becoming a High Fist? I might just be making that up, though.

[D'rek]

Zorland;241066 said:

Wasn't it implied in DG that Coltaine led a previous, failed rebellion before becoming a High Fist? I might just be making that up, though.

Yup, but he was leading the Wickans out of the wickan plains on Quon Tali, so it didn't have much bearing on 7C

[Kurt Montandon]

The conquest of Seven Cities was followed by a sub-Continent wide rebellion that began in Aren, after the T'lan Imass were let loose there.

The conquest of Y'Ghatan, therefore, couldn't have been during the original conquest campaign, as it happened before the Emperor's death, while the Aren rebellion happened after his death.

So, I suspect that the original conquest of the Seven Cities didn't include Y'Ghatan, which was supposed to be the eighth Holy City in any case - the Malazans no doubt conquered the actual Seven initially. So there's probably a lot of overlap between the original campaign and the counter-Aren-rebellion (which gave rise to the Bridgeburners).

In fact, I'm pretty sure the Genabackan campaign started during the Aren rebellion, which lasted at least three years based on Whiskeyjack's recounting in MoI. That's plenty of time for a lot of stuff to happen. Also, from Duiker's POV in DG (when viewing the boy who would give a divination, early in the book), the initial conquest of Seven Cities ended about fifteen years prior to GotM. However, we've no idea when it started, and I strongly suspect it was 20+ years before GotM when Malazan troops first landed in Seven Cities.

So ...

-15 years pre-Pale: Original campaign to conquer Seven Cities winds down; didn't include conquest of Y'Ghatan, probably due to lack of military and economic significance.
-13 years pre-Pale: Aren rebellion begins.
-12 years pre-Pale: Beginning of the Genebackan campaign.
-10 years pre-Pale: Bridgeburners formed; Y'Ghatan; Bridgeburners perhaps sent to Genabackis soon after (they didn't seem present at Y'Ghatan, though WJ was).
-9 years pre-Pale: WJ and Fiddler pass through Malaz City; Death of the Emperor sometime later that year.

The real trick is that we've no idea how much Whiskeyjack and Fiddler bounced around during this period - they could've gone over to Genabackis and back to Malaz City a few times.

[D'rek]

kmmontandon;241080 said:

The conquest of Seven Cities was followed by a sub-Continent wide rebellion that began in Aren, after the T'lan Imass were let loose there.

The conquest of Y'Ghatan, therefore, couldn't have been during the original conquest campaign, as it happened before the Emperor's death, while the Aren rebellion happened after his death.

au contraire, the fall of Dassem at Y'ghatan did take place before the Emporer's death.

kmmontandon;241080 said:

-10 years pre-Pale: Bridgeburners formed; Y'Ghatan; Bridgeburners perhaps sent to Genabackis soon after (they didn't seem present at Y'Ghatan, though WJ was).

do we know for a fact that WJ was at Y'ghatan? Just because ganoes (and thus, supposedly, all the nobles) think he was doesn't mean he truly was

kmmontandon;241080 said:

The real trick is that we've no idea how much Whiskeyjack and Fiddler bounced around during this period - they could've gone over to Genabackis and back to Malaz City a few times.

I'm pretty much sure that once they went to Genebackis, they didn't come back. At the end of the GotM prologue Laseen tells WJ his transports have arrived and adds "We'll not miss you or your restless, seditious soldiers, Commander." It appears Laseen was sending WJ's command (especially the BBs but also including Dujek) to Genebackis immediately after the Mouse Quarter incident. This was probably to get them away from the action when she committed her betrayal of Kel and Dancer. As such, it's unlikely she would have ever recalled them from Genebackis. In fact she probably busted down WJ, Fiddler and the others right away, so there'd be no military reason for them to have come back either.

By the way, the Moranth alliance was forged in 1156.

[Mentalist]

BB's happened before Y'ghatan.
Y'ghatan happened during initial conquest--it was the last stronghold and was proclaimed "The First Holy City", once everyother one fell.
following Dassem's fall, there was unrest in the army, since most expected WJ to take over. My theory is, once the other fist (don't remember name) was assigned the the control of 7C forces, WJ and BBs were recalled to Malaz island and soon participated in the putting down onf the Mous riots, Following that, they were shipped off to Genabackis.

MINOR NoK SPOILER

Spoiler

A number of BB's went into hiding, sticked around Malaz island and were used by Kellanved & Dancer in an attempt to "stop' Lasseen on the night of their "murders"

[D'rek]

in note of your NoK spoiler --> precisely: Laseen had them recalled to Malaz City and then sent to Genebackis to get rid of them so they couldn't stop her or effectively rebel against her coup d'état.

I think the BBs were recalled to Malaz City before Dassem's fall, however.
a) We know from the GotM prologue that they were there very shortly after Y'Ghatan, and it's a long distance between the cities. And the malazan armies didn't have entire companies traveling by warren so the entire 3rd wouldn't have gone by warren from Y'Ghatan to Malaz City.
Laseen didn't want them at Y'Ghatan because it would be too easy for WJ to take over for Dassem and continue the siege. With the 3rd in Malaz City, Laseen could claim the "smart" thing to do was to promote to High Fist the guy still in the field (is this Pormqual or does he take over later?). So instead she (secretly?) brought the 3rd back to Malaz City to then be shipped out to remote Genebackis.

[Kurt Montandon]

kud13;241115 said:

BB's happened before Y'ghatan.
Y'ghatan happened during initial conquest--it was the last stronghold and was proclaimed "The First Holy City", once everyother one fell.

When talking to Rake, Whiskeyjack specifically says that the Bridgeburners were formed during the Aren rebellion. And given that they were formed at Dassem's command, Dassem had to have been struck down at the end of that rebellion ... Y'Ghatan.

skir said:

do we know for a fact that WJ was at Y'ghatan? Just because ganoes (and thus, supposedly, all the nobles) think he was doesn't mean he truly was

Since you seem to have read NoK, note that one of the commanders as a potential candidate for immediately taking over after Dassem went down was Whiskeyjack. They selected Amaron, instead (it may have been Ameron, don't have the book with me, and I'm pretty sure the third viable candidate was named Choss).

skir said:

au contraire, the fall of Dassem at Y'ghatan did take place before the Emporer's death.

Which is an unfortunate contradiction. Y'Ghatan happened after the formation of the BBs, but the BBs were formed during the Aren Rebellion ... which could only have taken place after the Emperor's death, according to everyone's viewpoint. That is, the Aren Rebellion was sparked by the T'lan Imass' slaughter of that city's citizens, and that order was given by the Emperor. To wit:
MoI, pp. 597:
"Someone returned to sit down in that First Throne - and that someone was supposed to be dead - and he used the T'lan Imass to wreak vengeance on Lasseen, to shake her grip on the Empire. Lo, the fist hint that Emperor Kellanved wasn't quite as dead as we would have liked."
- Dujek talking to Whiskeyjack, about the slaughter at Aren. This, of course, directly contradicts Apsalar's POV in Deadhouse Gates, where she mentions arguing (as Dancer) with Surly, about the order given to the Imass to kill the citizens of Aren ... but Erikson may simply have had a better narrative in mind by the time he wrote MoI (the early parts of DG have some GotMisms in them).

So, a serious internal contradiction. The BBs were supposed to have been formed in the Aren rebellion, which happens after the Emperor's death ... but they were also supposed to have been a favored unit of the Emperor's, and Y'Ghatan had to have happened after the Bridgeburner's formation in Raraku.

[Mentalist]

Well, there's also something in tBH--the reballion occured in Aren in support of Barathol Mekhar--and as the rioting went on, T'lann Imass were unleashed on the populace..

[D'rek]

kmmontandon;241121 said:

When talking to Rake, Whiskeyjack specifically says that the Bridgeburners were formed during the Aren rebellion. And given that they were formed at Dassem's command, Dassem had to have been struck down at the end of that rebellion ... Y'Ghatan.

Quote

MoI, chapter 8:
"Adaephon Delat, a middling wizard in the employ of one of the Seven Holy Protectors during an abortive rebellion that originated in Aren. Delat and eleven other mages made up the Protector's cadre. Our besieging army's own sorcerors were more than their match - Bellurdan, Nightchill, Tayschrenn, A'Karonys, Tesormalandis, Stumpy - a formidable gathering known for their brutal execution of the Emperor's will. Well, the city the Protector was holed up in was breached, the walls sundered, slaughter in the streets, the madness of battle gripped us all. Dassem struck down the Holy Protector - Dassem and his band of followers he called his First Sword - they chewed their way through the enemy ranks. The Protector's cadre, seeing the death of their master and the shattering of the army, fled. Dassem ordered my company in pursuit, out into the desert. Our guide was a local, a man recently recruited into our own Claw..."

WJ does not specifically say that this is a part of the rebellion we believe occured after the T'lan Imass slaughter at Aren. In fact, there are lots of reasons why it probably isn't the same. If there was a rebellion resulting from the T'lan Imass slaughter at Aren, then I'll call it "the T'lan rebellion", while this "abortive rebellion originating in Aren" that WJ talks about I'll call "the abortive rebellion". They might be the same, but I personally believe there is no "T'lan rebellion", while impersonally I will now point out the evidence that WJ's passage is in reference to "the abortive rebellion":

a) QB is in the employ of one of the seven holy protectors, implying the other might still be alive, or at most freshly dead. There were no holy protectors left after the malazans had finished conquering 7C. The "T'lan rebellion" occured after the malazan conquest, as that conquest was just about finished under the Emporer.

There's no chance this took place at Aren, Raraku is much too far away. Aren is not overly fronted by any deserts for WJ to head into in pursuit (at least in comparison to the real 7C deserts). The city was breached, the malazans did slaughter in the streets - at Aren there was no breach and the malazans weren't needed as the T'lan did the slaughter for them.

c) WJ mentions the mage cadre's exceution of the Emporer's will. Surely if this battle occured under Laseen's rule, he'd have phrased it differently to emphasize the past tense.


Thus, I believe this battle which led to the BBs going through Raraku occured in a different city (not even necessarily a holy one, just the residence of a Holy Protector), much closer to Raraku. It was at a time during the original Malazan conquest of 7C, as there were still Holy Protectors to be dealt with. The rebellion originated in Aren, but that's not too surprising as the Malazans would surely have conquered that location early in the campaign (a wonderful naval port, close to Quon Tali, etc). I would theorize that the crucial aspect of this rebellion is that the Seven Holy Protectors joined forces against the Malazan threat. Dassem then lead the main army to quash the rebellion by taking out the Holy Protectors one by one.

Much later on the "Aren rebellion" occurs when the T'lan Imass obey a dead Kel's command and slaughter the folk of Aren. This "rebellion" might not even have spread beyond Aren, considering the efficiency of the T'lan Imass and the fear that would spread from their slaughter.

------------------------------------------------------------------

kmmontandon;241121 said:

Since you seem to have read NoK, note that one of the commanders as a potential candidate for immediately taking over after Dassem went down was Whiskeyjack. They selected Amaron, instead (it may have been Ameron, don't have the book with me, and I'm pretty sure the third viable candidate was named Choss).

I haven't read NoK. WJ was the most likely candidate for taking over from Dassem, so Surly ordered him and the 3rd out of the field and back to Malaz City just before Dassem died. This way she could promote one of the commanders still in the field. That done, she sent the 3rd to Genebackis so they (a) wouldn't pose a threat of rebellion/usurpation; and ( couldn't prevent her from killing Kel and Dancer upon their return.