[Mentalist]

k, i mostly agree with the above post with a few exceptions

I am not sure that Holy Protectors and the Holy Falah'ds are the same thing
if that is in fact true, then we may have had the following turn of events:
Dassem-led Malazans decimate 7C, taking over the 7 Holy cites, (at which point I must ask: do we have ANY time references as to the conquest of Karakarang? Since it is so out of the way, I'd assume it was one of the last to fall/surrender).killing the 7 Falah'ds tho ruled them. As Malazans were mopping up resistance, and many 7C natives thatstill wanted to fight began to gather at Y'ghatan, the populace in the conquered areas rose in revolt, started apparently in Aren (the "abortive") This, in turn, precipitated the rise of the so-called "Holy protectors" in the tradition of the Falah'ds, who became the reabellion's focal points. This rebellion was crushed, with one of the episodes being the one described in the WJ quote, and led to the eventual creation of the BBs. Once the rebellion was put down, Dassem turned his attention to the less accesible, still independent parts of 7C--oin particular, Y'ghatan.

Skip forward to after Kellanved's death. Barathol Mekhar, (who I believe was a Red Blades commander), kills a Malazan Fist in Aren and is arrested. This act is perceived by the citizens of Aren as beginning of repressions against them unnder the new (Laseen's) regime. They riot, and--someone--gives the order that the rebellion be put down by T'lann Imass, causing the Aren Massacre. Barathol flees and is branded traitor.

This is very rough, and based on an assumption, so might be quite inaccurate and may belong inthe Crazy theories thread, but this is how I interpreted the whole 7C situation

[D'rek]

Exactly as I was thinking, good stuff. And a very good point about Holy Protectors vs Holy Falah'ds, I forgot about the different terms. I can't think of any times when characters have had meaningful discussions or thoughts about the exact roles of each, so this may require some research. That whole description fits nicely into the timeline and is fully compatible with the major events and circumstances like the Mouse, Dassem's fall, WJ getting busted down and the beginning of the Moranth alliance.

As for dates alluding directly to the Malaz campaing through 7C... I don't think there are many. As it is though, Karakarang was probably not the last because it's easily accessible by Navy, which the Malazans had to have in force. Something we may need to figure out is which cities are the truly Holy ones, since I definitely recall that it's not precisely the same ones as those that look biggest on the map. Even then, the Holy Protectors and/or Falah'ds might not have been stationed in the respective cities anyway...

[Sinisdar Toste]

skir;241133 said:

I haven't read NoK. WJ was the most likely candidate for taking over from Dassem, so Surly ordered him and the 3rd out of the field and back to Malaz City just before Dassem died. This way she could promote one of the commanders still in the field. That done, she sent the 3rd to Genebackis so they (a) wouldn't pose a threat of rebellion/usurpation; and ( couldn't prevent her from killing Kel and Dancer upon their return.

NoK spoilers:













Right before the Sword engages at Y'ghatan, NoK pg. 151-152 "Dassem gestured to his signal corps and the messengers stopped coming; he had turned over the battle to the sub-commanders of the third army: Amaron, Choss and Whiskeyjack." He was around right until Dassems fall, after that Laseen probably sends him away before she tells Temper that Choss is taking over.

[Brys Beddict]

One thing I'm sketchy with is the Moranth munitions . I always believed that the Moranth simply perfected Kellanved's work. In DG when Fid and the lot of them are tearing through the soletaken and d'ivers to get to Tremorlor, Iskaral Pust asks who invented the munitions to which Fid replies with "your god" or something along those lines (if it wasn't DG, it was another scene in a different book, but I'm pretty sure this happened in DG). So, it could be that at the time of Y'Ghatan, the Malazan sappers were using a more primitive type of explosives to blast holes through the walls of Y'Ghatan. I don't have my book with me, so I can't nab a quote right now, but when I find it, I'll drop it.

[Mentalist]

I'm not quite sure about this either, but as I recall, it was more along the lines of "Damn sappers!!! who was it that though up of you?"

As for Karakang, the issue there was, Kimloceventually surrendered the city, (although he claimed his Spiritwalker powers could anhihilate the malazans), but he did it b/c he realized the strength of Malazan mages, if I'm not mistaken. ,which leads me to beleive that the mage cadre that followed Dasseem around (Tay, A'karonys, Bellurdan, etc). was present.
Of course, I could be totally wrong on that account, lol

[Kurt Montandon]

kud13;241140 said:

I am not sure that Holy Protectors and the Holy Falah'ds are the same thing

It's certain they aren't. The Holy Falah'ds - who are still around as of Bonehunters, at least on the fringes (see Karsa's time in Ugarat), are inherited nobility, with a somewhat high turnover rate due to the backstabbing and warlording inherent in Seven Cities culture.

The Holy Protectors, on the other hand, were anointed warriors of great skill and the patronage of one or more gods. There seems to have been one per Holy City until Y'Ghatan, with Surgen the eighth and last. We're not given mention by which gods any of them were blessed, however, so I'd assume whichever deities were bored enough to pay attention.

And two separate rebellions in Aren would clear up a lot of inconsistencies - the first spreading Seven Cities wide, the second a few years later being more of a local uprising and rioting. I don't think, however, that Erikson had two separate rebellions in mind - I think he just changed his mind between writing the early parts of DG, and the retrospectives in MoI; and further that the finalized timeline wasn't entirely communicated between Erikson and Esslemont.

So rather than contorting the material, it's probably best just to chalk it up to retconning by the author.

Then again, if there's any defnitive passages showing that two separate rebellions can be attributed to Aren, that would be a relief.

[Aptorian]

kud13;241156 said:

As for Karakang, the issue there was, Kimloceventually surrendered the city, (although he claimed his Spiritwalker powers could anhihilate the malazans), but he did it b/c he realized the strength of Malazan mages, if I'm not mistaken. ,which leads me to beleive that the mage cadre that followed Dasseem around (Tay, A'karonys, Bellurdan, etc). was present.
Of course, I could be totally wrong on that account, lol

In my opinion Kimloc didn't destroy the malazans because of two things A: I think they are pacifists. He didn't want to slaughter ten thousand people. B: The conquest was inevitable, 7C was weak or sick with strife, much like Genebackis, allthough a hostile takeover, the 7C invasion was for the long term best.

A guy who can fashion a ritual that makes a couple of thousand people ascend, just like that, doesn't really need worry about a cadre of mages... I think.

[Coco with marshmallows]

also, there was the issue of the t'lan imass. Kimloc wasn't sure he could take out umpteen thousand of the dusty undead psychos.

[Aptorian]

Oh, yeah, I hadn't thought of that. I wonder if Kimloc isn't so powerfull he need not even worry about them, unless they get all elder times of fire and brimstone on his ass.

[Vengeance]

Since the t'lan could change to dust I don't think that Kimloc could have done anything to them. It is also possible that he knew that if he killed all of the Malazan forces then Kellanved would just unlease the Imass and as retribution kill all of the inhabitants of his city....That would be to many deaths for Kimloc to be responsible for.

[Abyss]

skir;241105 said:

au contraire, the fall of Dassem at Y'ghatan did take place before the Emporer's death...

Yes, but after Kel and Dancer's initial disappearance for a decade. Which means at least one 7C rebellion took place during Surly's stewardship before she became Laseen.

That may or may not be the same rebellion where the Imass massacred at Aren - which i think we know to be the only action the Imass took for the Empire during Laseen's rule, other than Tool accompanying Lorn to Darujhistan.

And doesn't fundamentally matter, as it appears YGhatan was taken more than once.

- Abyss, what were we talking about?

[D'rek]

Aptorian;241179 said:

A guy who can fashion a ritual that makes a couple of thousand people ascend, just like that, doesn't really need worry about a cadre of mages... I think.

if that's a reference to the BBs, then its only 70ish people, plus he had help from Ganoes, so maybe he's not as strong as we think he is (or maybe even more!).

Abyss said:

- Abyss, what were we talking about?

I think we were talking about Karsa's encounter with Urko and how Urko could be so strong.
Then we talked about who was in the Old Guard and the difference between the "Old Guard" and "Kel's Family".
Then we debated whether munitions were at Dassem's fall.
That led to debating how the BBs and 7C situation could've progressed in order to work with... everything.
And now we're talking about Kimloc at karakang, as well as talking about what we're talking about.

Fun!

[Aptorian]

skir;241457 said:

if that's a reference to the BBs, then its only 70ish people, plus he had help from Ganoes, so maybe he's not as strong as we think he is (or maybe even more!).

No, Bridge burners long dead ascended, you see this from the Ghosts in HoC and you get it from some of QBs worry about dead BBs.

[D'rek]

ok, so what thousands of people did Kimloc make ascend...?

[Vengeance]

Everyone who was ever a BB....At one time there were a lot more of them...Remember how many thousands were lost at Pale....

[D'rek]

yeah, but they didn't ALL ascend, did they? I thought it was just the originals plus any who were under Paran's command... I guess I made an out-to-lunch assumption there

[Coco with marshmallows]

yeah, it was all of them who had ever been a bridgeburner.

Kalam is saved in HoC by the

Spoiler

captain (Ash?) who died on the night of the assassinations/ascencsion as mentioned in NoK

[Mentalist]

Heh.. BB's were a "company"
who know how many ppl in a company?
Who know how many new recruits they've had since the original Raraku?
Since Fid was there from the beginning, and the song was drawn from his memories, it's safe to assume that "everyone who was ever a BB while Fiddler was part of BBs, has ascended"
So, if in theory, following the farewells at the end of GotM in Darujhistan, Dujek brought some wide-eyed recruits to WJ and said "these were the last shipment we got from Genabaris b4 we were cut loose", and then they died at Coral, we aren't sure if they would've ascended or not...

[Aptorian]

No, there weren't any new recruits attached or soldiers transfered to the BBs after Pale. They were less than... 30? in MoI.. or were they still 70 in the Barghast camp?

[Mentalist]

lol... I'm well aware of that.
If you read carefully, you'll see that i said IN THEORY....