[Aptorian]

So, we're all agreed right? Clip is the great grandfather, Topper is the grandfather, pearl the father and grub the child, right?

Apt, circulating rumors since 1981.

[Abyss]

Aptorian;236057 said:

So, we're all agreed right? Clip is the great grandfather, Topper is the grandfather, pearl the father and grub the child, right?....

No no no...

Topper is Rake's half-grandchild once removed. Pearl is Topper's grandchild. Laseen is Pearl's Mother. Luke is his sister and Darth Vader is his father.

- Abyss, spin doctor...

[Mentalist]

xanth13;236025 said:

Could this also link Korbolo and crew to high house shadow...are the pons of Shadowthrone??

I doubt that last point. ST retained feelings of attachment to the Wickans. Korbolo relished in wiping them out. I think that point alone would make ST not like corbolo and not want to use him.
As for the Claw, I like to think that it is quite resilient, and that all the massive wipeouts it faced so far in MBotF were nothing more than a clever ploy to streamline an organization growing too big and unwieldly for its own good...

EDIT: Pearl was part Andii, he says so in HoC, which seems to be the reason he'll have trouble getting through the Whirwind wall and needed to walk in Lostara's shadow....

[Kurt Montandon]

kud13;236090 said:

I doubt that last point. ST retained feelings of attachment to the Wickans. Korbolo relished in wiping them out. I think that point alone would make ST not like corbolo and not want to use him.

That, and he seems strongly disapproving of Mallick Rel, who's closely tied to Korbolo. Kellanved tried to wipe out the Jhistal cult, after all, so I doubt he's real happy that one of the survivors is waddling around in the corridors of his former power ...

[Mentalist]

wiping out of the Jhistal was probably no more than part of the general policy of "remove all native power structures from conquered lands"... what might make him more upset is, once, again, the fate of the Wickans and (if our speculations are correct), the link b/w Rel and the CG...

[BridgeBurner]

Abyss;236017 said:

Back to Nequam's original question tho', ST/Cot's interests include the Empire, Meanas, and a fairly wide web of interests that include the Azath, the conflict with the Crippled God, and what seems to be a conflict with the Nameless Ones... Pearl could have been tagetted for any of those, or just because he was a very good assassin and could become a player in the future.

From what we saw of Pearl's journey tracing Felisin, we know that he's smart, intelligent and has a pretty good general knowledge of the world. For some reason those are traits I don't associate with the average Claw.

Maybe ST considered him to be a threat, because he feared Pearl could have had the ability to second guess him in his goals.

And I'm not referring to 'placing his ass on every available Throne', but things related to the Azath/NO's.

And, loyalty to the BB, of course. Remember ST's comment about that to Fiddler, at the end of DG.

[thesalus]

kud13;236090 said:

Pearl was part Andii, he says so in HoC, which seems to be the reason he'll have trouble getting through the Whirlwind wall and needed to walk in Lostara's shadow....

Quote

'Of course, first we will have to breach the goddess's defences, undetected. You are of Pardu blood, so she will take no heed of you. I, on the other hand, am one-fourth Tiste Andii-'
She started, breath catching. 'You are?'
He looked back, surprised. 'You didn’t know? My mother was from Drift Avalii, a half-blood white-haired beauty- or so I'm told, as I have no direct recollection, since she left me with my father as soon as I'd been weaned.'

Chapter 20.

It seems that QB's sister was on their hitlist too. Not much of a backstory in terms of her pre-Poliel employment.

[Skywalker]

Thanks for the quote Thesalus... I got a "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to thesalus again." when I tried to rep you

[Abyss]

kmmontandon;236092 said:

...Kellanved tried to wipe out the Jhistal cult, after all, so I doubt he's real happy that one of the survivors is waddling around in the corridors of his former power ...

True, but he also tried to wipe out the Nameless Ones, the Rashani, and assorted Shadow cults... essentially, any cult stucture that was a possible source of opposition, religious, warren or otherwise.

It would make sense that some on the list were linked to this, but i doubt Pearl was one.

And of course, Poliel depopulating the continent sort of rendered a lotof the effort moot.

- Abyss, wiped out a cult once... actually, it was a culture... actually, it was yoghurt...

[Nequam]

Hmm...well I hope something about all this is touched in the books still unwritten. Thank you to everyone for responding to my question so thoroughly.

Now...anyone who has some of those crazy theories concerning this I would love to read them. :cool: (or would this thread then need to be moved or something?)

[Crow Clan Baby]

Bonehunters, Chapter 13, when QB/Fid/Kalam/Lostara/Apsalar/Hellian and crew are walking from Y'Ghatan, there's an interesting conversation where QB says that he'd "like to see Pearl disposed of", and Kalam intimates that he (Pearl) is key to Tavore's next move. Makes it pretty obvious that Pearl has extremely close links with the Empress ("Everyone thinks Topper's the master in the Claw, but I wonder..."), which - putting 2 and 2 together - seems to me as though a possible reason would be to sever direct links between the Fourteenth and the Empress, thereby leaving Tavore free to act independently. Going against the Edur would naturally be high on ST's list of priorities, owing to the whole Throne of Shadow/Drift Avalii mess. No guarantee that doing so would have been the course Tavore would have chosen, but we all know that ST likes to play complicated games.

[Nequam]

ooo. Nice detective work..unless you just remembered or something. Though, are you suggesting that Pearl had conrol over the Claw due to the Topper remark? Because I think they were refering to Mallik Rel.

So if Pearl is part Tiste, is he actually older than I thought?

[Coco with marshmallows]

my memory may be fuzzing up here,

but isn't there a scene in HoC where Pearl is knocked out by Lostara just before Cotillion appears to have a conversation with her?

If so, clearly he wasn't wanting Pearl dead then, as he could have just leaned over and slit his throat.

So logically, it's only something that happened after this point that put him on ST's shit-list.

So i'd have to agree with the idea that it's because he chose to attack Kalam/abandon the 14th. If he hadn't done these things, he'd still be wandering around.

[thesalus]

How many of the more potent assassins are still around and kicking? Vorcan - no. Kalam - no. Pearl - no. Topper? Who knows.

I think Cotillion/Shadowthrone have to act through their minions rather than do the dirty work themselves. Because they have to stick by some unwritten agreement - else it opens up the floor for other ascendants to act on their own.

[Zanth13]

Cocoreturns;236163 said:

my memory may be fuzzing up here,

but isn't there a scene in HoC where Pearl is knocked out by Lostara just before Cotillion appears to have a conversation with her?

If so, clearly he wasn't wanting Pearl dead then, as he could have just leaned over and slit his throat.

So logically, it's only something that happened after this point that put him on ST's shit-list.

So i'd have to agree with the idea that it's because he chose to attack Kalam/abandon the 14th. If he hadn't done these things, he'd still be wandering around.

Or because they have plots upon plots, they wanted Pearl to finish something they knew he was up to that would be mutually beneficial (no clue what it could be maybe jacking up kalam so he could be collected in the DH) then they knew any future activities he would be up to might not further there plans so it was off with his head.

Question I have never seen answered, wtf was up with lasseen talking through a corpse when Kalam met her in DeadHouse Gates??

[Mentalist]

We have crazy theories thread for the later books....

[Aptorian]

xanth13;236231 said:

Question I have never seen answered, wtf was up with lasseen talking through a corpse when Kalam met her in DeadHouse Gates??

Missdirection. She tricked Kalam into thinking she was actually in the room, delaying him long enough to let him see sense. If he hadn't sensed a body he would have left and continued his search for her.

You also have to remember that the radio isn't invented (never mind the KCCM bone thing) so she couldn't just have talked with him over her intercom, I'm guessing she used the corpse to form the sounds.

[Zanth13]

Was she a mage?? or do you thing someone is helping her....

[Aptorian]

The whole room covered in shadows and the animated corpse has been discussed before. We haven't heard any suggestions that she's a mage. She has a thousand ninja mages working for her which could probably have made the illusions and the animation of the corse.

NoK info

Spoiler

In the showdown in the throneroom Laseen has sprinkled the floor with ottataral to weaken the two, it would suggest that she's not a mage, but of course it could also just be a gamble. Her believing she doesn't need the power.

[Gibby]

I think a lot of the thoughts here make sense.

The reasons I thought Cotillion wanted Pearl dead (some mentioned already in posts) could be any/all of the following
1. vengeance against Claw
2. purge it of Mallick Rel's influence
3. Pure hatred/desire to weaken Laseen
4. Cotillion thought Pearl would flip on Laseen and help Kalam, when he didn't, Cotillion had Apsalar kill him.

Also, remember Pearl used poison against Kalam, another assassin, which was against the code. Perhaps that was the straw that broke Cotillion's back and made him send Apsalar in. Without Pearl's "cheating" that way, Kalam may have made it to the fleet.