[blackzoid]

A few questions for ye. I imagine some of them will probably have been answered before so apologies in advance.

1: The short-tailed K'Chain Che'Malle, the K'Chain Nah'ruk, did they have the elite Kell Hunters as well or was it just the normal K'Chain Che'Malle? I know they did not have Matron's but did the K'Chain Nah'ruk have classes of the species?
I think the Kell Hunters in Memories of Ice were undead versions of Long-Tails.
But was the creature Karsa fought in the Bonehunters a Kell-Hunter? It was specifically described as having a Short-Tail

2: The normal K'Chain Che'Malle did not create Sky Keeps right? They lived in Hive cities in the ground. I remember in Memories of Ice that the Matron shivered in fear that Moon's Spawn was on its way, Pannion explained that the Short-Tails used to bomb the normal K'Chain Che'Malle from the sky. But what about the Prologue of Midnight Tides? The Tiste invasion was against normal K'Chain Che'Malle backed up with 3 sky keeps. Did that invasion then occur when the Short-Tails of the area were enslaved to the Matron's? I assume it must have because the rebellion at Morn is mentioned along with truce negotiations with Silchas/Short-Tails in Reaper's Gale.

3: The K'Chain Che'Malle fought a running battle with Redmask's tribe when they were fleeing into the Lether eastlands right? Well how along ago was that? The timeline must be a bit messed up here, because no matter how long ago their tribal memory of the event was, it could not possibly be as long as the real thing, which was I assume the retreat of the K'Chain Che'Malle from the Tiste Invasion. The Tiste invasion was about 300,000 years ago, Redmask's people are normal human descendents, ie non-ritual Imass but hundereds of generations removed. The humans did not appear until after this event so how can they remember it? Or was there several K'Chain Che'Malle retreats over time.

4: Quick question, Redmask's 2 K'Chain Che'Malle were Long-Tails right? And they were found in the eastlands. But there were Sky-Keeps in the Imperial warren in the Bonehunters. So the civil-war is about to begin again?

[Aptorian]

blackzoid;233768 said:

A few questions for ye. I imagine some of them will probably have been answered before so apologies in advance.

1: The short-tailed K'Chain Che'Malle, the K'Chain Nah'ruk, did they have the elite Kell Hunters as well or was it just the normal K'Chain Che'Malle? I know they did not have Matron's but did the K'Chain Nah'ruk have classes of the species?
I think the Kell Hunters in Memories of Ice were undead versions of Long-Tails.
But was the creature Karsa fought in the Bonehunters a Kell-Hunter? It was specifically described as having a Short-Tail?

Kallor says in MoI, that Matrons were the only mothers in the KCCM society and that she could breed specific creatures like the warrior Kell Hunters with blades. Kallors description questioned the blades though, whether the blades are natural or are fused to them later.

If it was a short-tail, then from what little we know, no it wasn't a kell-hunter.

blackzoid;233768 said:

2: The normal K'Chain Che'Malle did not create Sky Keeps right? They lived in Hive cities in the ground. I remember in Memories of Ice that the Matron shivered in fear that Moon's Spawn was on its way, Pannion explained that the Short-Tails used to bomb the normal K'Chain Che'Malle from the sky. But what about the Prologue of Midnight Tides? The Tiste invasion was against normal K'Chain Che'Malle backed up with 3 sky keeps. Did that invasion then occur when the Short-Tails of the area were enslaved to the Matron's? I assume it must have because the rebellion at Morn is mentioned along with truce negotiations with Silchas/Short-Tails in Reaper's Gale.?

We aren't sure whether the skykeeps were only used by the Naruk. They use magic so a Matron shouldn't have trouble making one.

The Long-tails were both under attack by the Naruk but they had also been fighting dragons.

We don't know what politics where at play at the Tiste invasion, perhaps the Naruk and Longtails put their differences aside to fight the invaders.

blackzoid;233768 said:

3: The K'Chain Che'Malle fought a running battle with Redmask's tribe when they were fleeing into the Lether eastlands right? Well how along ago was that? The timeline must be a bit messed up here, because no matter how long ago their tribal memory of the event was, it could not possibly be as long as the real thing, which was I assume the retreat of the K'Chain Che'Malle from the Tiste Invasion. The Tiste invasion was about 300,000 years ago, Redmask's people are normal human descendents, ie non-ritual Imass but hundereds of generations removed. The humans did not appear until after this event so how can they remember it? Or was there several K'Chain Che'Malle retreats over time.?

Perhaps the legends are actually from the Imass ancestors that existed around the area. The Tiste Invasion happened around 400-500.000 years ago.

We know from the First Empire expeditions mentioned in the chapter openings in RG that the KCCM were found then. So the legends could be from anywhere between 400.000 years ago and the first empires invasion of Lether.

blackzoid;233768 said:

4: Quick question, Redmask's 2 K'Chain Che'Malle were Long-Tails right? And they were found in the eastlands. But there were Sky-Keeps in the Imperial warren in the Bonehunters. So the civil-war is about to begin again?

The Skykeeps in the Imperial Warren are believed to have appeared because the Moon was hit in the Jadestatue kollision. The theory goes that the place the KCCM came from originally was The Garden of the Moon.

There is however a coversation in RG between the Errant and... Menandore? about the skykeeps. It goes something in the lines of:
"They've been sighted"
"so it has begun then?"
"not yet"

[blackzoid]

Thanks for those answers Aptorian. I guess we don't really have all the answers in the books to everything yet.

[Flawed]

Lets hope we get something in the next book. Ive got a feeling we may.

What would be interesting is a first hand view of things from a Ke Chain Ch Mail. Showing how diferent and alien they are.

That would be cool

[cerveza_fiesta]

agreed flawed. POVs from KCCM and KCN would be intense. I'm picturing the scenes on klingon ships where everything is all red-lighted and there's mist on the floor. All the klingons are snarling and pissed looking, saying things like "KAPLAAAAH, and FORJ'JOS keh'BOCH" while zeroing in on some poor federation ship.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Aptorian;233772 said:

The Skykeeps in the Imperial Warren are believed to have appeared because the Moon was hit in the Jadestatue kollision. The theory goes that the place the KCCM came from originally was The Garden of the Moon.

i prefer to think that the KCCM are Wu's dinosaurs and are native to the world. in the RG prologue when gothos, mael, and killy are about to finish scabby, it opens up as "The Ruined K'Chain Che'malle Demesne" the sky keeps could be from the moon, but the KN, i think, took them there during the rebellion to escape the matrons.

[Aptorian]

Perhaps, yet in RG a KCCM homeworld is mentioned, remember the Dragons get around, their first born might not have been concieved on Wu.

[Mentalist]

KCCM/NR came from SD.
see my very long and elaboraty crazy theory on the Crazy theory thread page 5 or 6

EDIT: page 7

[Dolorous Menhir]

Juicy topic.

Long-tails = K'Chain Che'Malle = KCCM
Short-tails = K'Chain Nah'Ruk = KCNR

I can't remember the source, but I'm convinced the KCCM were described as invaders of the Malazan world.

blackzoid;233768 said:

1: The short-tailed K'Chain Che'Malle, the K'Chain Nah'ruk, did they have the elite Kell Hunters as well or was it just the normal K'Chain Che'Malle?

The K'ell Hunters are KCCM only (that we've seen). Karsa fought a Short-tail - it was definitely not described as having huge blades instead of hands. Interesting tidbit - the Short-tail appeared to have nanobots in its blood. More high tech?

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2: The normal K'Chain Che'Malle did not create Sky Keeps right?

The KCNR are supposed to have been the technological ones. They would have built the tech. If we trust Kallor's exposition in MoI, the KCNR were extinct evolutionary precursors of the KCCM. The KCCM resurrected them (another dark hint that they are master geneticists) to serve as a slave race, presumably so those skills could be harnessed.

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But what about the Prologue of Midnight Tides? The Tiste invasion was against normal K'Chain Che'Malle backed up with 3 sky keeps. Did that invasion then occur when the Short-Tails of the area were enslaved to the Matron's?

Yes. The KCNR were a slave race to the KCCM, as the Jaghut were. Three causes have been given for the fall of the KCCM:

1. Rebellion by the Jaghut
2. Civil war with the KCNR
3. Tiste Invasion

Either the 3 occurred before 2, or 2 took place over a long period of time with staggered progression in different areas - so the MT prologue KCCM/KCNR alliance was still intact.

And after RG, we can add

4. Dragon attacks

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3: The K'Chain Che'Malle fought a running battle with Redmask's tribe when they were fleeing into the Lether eastlands right? Well how along ago was that? The timeline must be a bit messed up here, because no matter how long ago their tribal memory of the event was, it could not possibly be as long as the real thing, which was I assume the retreat of the K'Chain Che'Malle from the Tiste Invasion.

I think that's the problem. This must refer to a separate retreat, because there were no humans on the go at the time of the Tiste Invasion, let alone Awl. Presumably there are and were KCCM remnants on Lether within the tribal memory of the Awl. In fact we know there are, since two of them turned up with Redmask.

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The Tiste invasion was about 300,000 years ago, Redmask's people are normal human descendents, ie non-ritual Imass but hundereds of generations removed. The humans did not appear until after this event so how can they remember it? Or was there several K'Chain Che'Malle retreats over time.

The Tiste Invasion was more than 300,000 years pre-BS, possibly significantly more. That 300k figure is the time of the Tellan Ritual, the earliest dated event. Scabby's comments in the MT prologue strongly suggest that that Ritual had not taken place at the time of the prologue. So we know the Tiste Invasion occurred before the Tellan Ritual, and thus more than 300,000 years pre-BS.

And yes, there must have been several KCCM retreats.

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4: Quick question, Redmask's 2 K'Chain Che'Malle were Long-Tails right?

I think so.

Quote

And they were found in the eastlands. But there were Sky-Keeps in the Imperial warren in the Bonehunters. So the civil-war is about to begin again?

Interesting idea. You think the Sky Keeps contain KCNR, and they have reappeared now as a response to the suddenly active KCCM on Lether? The two sides have been fighting all this time? Intriguing.

I doubt that any KCNR or KCCM will appear as speaking or POV characters. They're just too alien. The only interactions we've seen with living KCCM and KCNR have been limited to them killing things in a non-communicative manner (Ganath, lots of Letherii, Redmask). I'm ignoring Pannion's insane Matron, she doesn't reveal a great deal - though up until RG, she was significant as the only living KCCM seen in the series.

[Optimus Prime]

We briefly saw the nahruk in BH when they killed the Jaghut right? If the KCCM and Nahruk are still feuding...it will be interesting to see them interacting with all the other peoples.

I don't see them working together

[Aptorian]

You know, it would be sneaky if Erikson, secretly, is allready staging the beginning of the next series in the MBotF. The Invasion from the KCCM and the Malazan empire and the pantheon pitted against the threat.

It would fit nicely with the Errant and one of the sisters in RGs conversation.

Ooohh...

[Mulch]

There has been more than one tiste invasion, Silchas was before Anomanders and if I remember correctly the bluerose andii are Anomanders. Perhaps the second invasion was the one they are one about?

[Optimus Prime]

Kallor did say the Matrons had power to rival or outmatch the Gods themselves....

I say SE goes for a clean, even 100 books of the Fallen

[blackzoid]

Thanks for those answers Dolorous Menhir:

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Quote:
And they were found in the eastlands. But there were Sky-Keeps in the Imperial warren in the Bonehunters. So the civil-war is about to begin again?
Interesting idea. You think the Sky Keeps contain KCNR, and they have reappeared now as a response to the suddenly active KCCM on Lether? The two sides have been fighting all this time? Intriguing.

Well, I just made (perhaps an invalid) assumption, that since the KCCM never created sky keeps like the KCNR did, that they would therefore never use any sky keeps that might be lying around. So by logical assumption, those sky keeps in the Bonehunters would be full of KCNR. I don't think Cotillion specified which type was in them. Of course my idea may be wrong.

[Optimus Prime]

I think you're right. Unless they've resolved their differences and are now allied together.

I'm trying to think of any specific references to the K'Chain Che'Malle using the sky keeps...i think the prologue of MT hints at this...and we never hear of the short tails in that do we?

[Lisheo]

The KCNR are mentioned in the MT as breaking their chains in revolution on a distant continent, so perhaps we can assume that the KCNR flying the Skykeeps allied to the Matrons were actually slaves?
The Eres'al were the true inhabitants of Wu. The KCCM came from Demelain, they are dragonspawn.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Mulch;234248 said:

There has been more than one tiste invasion, Silchas was before Anomanders and if I remember correctly the bluerose andii are Anomanders. Perhaps the second invasion was the one they are one about?

The Bluerose are the remnants of Silchas Ruin's Tiste Andii. Scabby's betrayal didn't get them all.

Anomander's party came earlier, and they account for the Drift Avalii and Moon's Spawn Andii populations.

That's the only two Andii influxes I can think of.

All of the known Tiste Edur in the world derive from Scabby's group.

And the Liosan have almost nothing to do with the Malazan world.

But that's way off topic.

[Aptorian]

I don't remember which of the tiste types it was, but Icarium notes on the original foundation of Pusts tempel, as beinng built by them. Bloodwood beams and such.

So there been a colony on 7C at some point.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Aptorian;234514 said:

I don't remember which of the tiste types it was, but Icarium notes on the original foundation of Pusts tempel, as beinng built by them. Bloodwood beams and such.

So there been a colony on 7C at some point.

Always though that was Edur - Icarium says it is a Kurald warren, but that he only knows Galain and it wasn't that. What with it being a Shadow temple, I think we can safely say it was Kurald Emurlahn, and so the Edur.

[Optimus Prime]

The Liosan fought the Just Wars against the Assail on Wu didn't they? Perhaps they attempted a similar invasion and upon discovering the ferocity of the races inhabiting Wu...retreated back to their Isolationist ways in their homeworld.