[Sinisdar Toste]

i dont know how likely that is, the original warren of fire, Tellann, was the Imass warren. and the original warren of light, Kurald Thyrllan, was the Tiste Liosan warren. if the FA do have a warren its something we havent heard of yet.
crazy theory: humans are not naturally magical, they needed k'ruls help. the FA were Wu's original magical inhabitants and could manipulate the laws of nature and physics in Wu at a 'magical' level. giving them amazing strength, longevity, endurance etc etc. it would be a kind of parallel to the Tiste and the eleint being orignally from their respective warrens, then coming to Wu. the FA were always on Wu, its their homeworld, just like the humans.

[Aptorian]

Seeing as the Imass stole that warren, it's not impossible, still very very unlikely though.

It's not a crazy theory that humans aren't naturally magical. If you compare humans to Jaghut and Fa likely, only few gifted indiviuals know the warrens.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Aptorian;236888 said:

Seeing as the Imass stole that warren, it's not impossible, still very very unlikely though.

It's not a crazy theory that humans aren't naturally magical. If you compare humans to Jaghut and Fa likely, only few gifted indiviuals know the warrens.

Not sure about that. It seems like only a few humans have natural ability with the warrens, but that any human can do it with training. Think that's definitely been implied a few times, but this is the kind of technical issue that SE both fudges and neglects. That's not a criticism, since it doesn't really matter.

[Aptorian]

Yes, people like kiska in NoK seem to be able to learn to use warrens they aren't naturally attuned to, but my impression of especially the Jaghut, is that they are all born capable of using OP or grow into it.

I can't think of a Jaghut mentioned that didn't know at least a couple of tricks, but then again, maybe Jaghuts without magic never lived long anyhow.

[Optimus Prime]

The Jaghut do seem to be the most naturally magic-imbued race...but there has to be mutations and such that lead to some not being as magically attuned

[Lisheo]

If the Jaghut stole Ice, and the Imass stole fire... Who originally owned fire? The Wolves had ice....
There is an Elder Warren for every human one, right? Then surely its probably Tennes for the FA?

[Mentalist]

Wow, so much stuff...realy don't know what to comment
on the warren topic--I think KCCM/NR got the leftovers of SD power that was not dedicated to K'rul's warren-blood plan

Stromriders are supposed to be "alien", though summoned by the Jaghut.

I'm not so sure about the Andii populations on Lethras--who was first--Rake or Silchas? and how do they match up to Bluerose & Shake?

FA are something i expect ICE to cover more deeply. Also, the concept of "Four Foundling races" was discontinued (as far as the glossaries go), after we found out about the Eres and TTT

[Zanth13]

kud13;237418 said:

Wow, so much stuff...realy don't know what to comment
on the warren topic--I think KCCM/NR got the leftovers of SD power that was not dedicated to K'rul's warren-blood plan

Stromriders are supposed to be "alien", though summoned by the Jaghut.

I'm not so sure about the Andii populations on Lethras--who was first--Rake or Silchas? and how do they match up to Bluerose & Shake?

FA are something i expect ICE to cover more deeply. Also, the concept of "Four Foundling races" was discontinued (as far as the glossaries go), after we found out about the Eres and TTT

well the only thing i can add is that I am pretty sure Rake was first to come to the world...(out of those 2 anyway) exhibit A. the classic quote about the 3 brothers Darist shamed, Rake left because of this/fight with MD, and then lastly Ruin. also when Ruin was stabbed in the back (shortly after coming to the world) Gothos felt rake stirring somewhere on the planet and then the whole Osserc going to match him blah blah but he actually when to the shadow realm and left osserc without anyone to play with.

[Captain Morgan]

On the topic of the KCCM and KCNR warrens I always thought that the KCNR had stolen the warren of Serc, I can't remember which book it was in but didn't iccy and mappo find a crucified dragon named Serc in a crashed Sky Keep. My crazy theory was that the dragon was actually the power source for all the sky keeps.
on the Tiste invasion I'm pretty sure that Rake came first and Andarist was a subordinate of his. I was pretty sure that Cutter and Andarist had a conversation to the effect that Anomander had placed him on drift avalii to guard the throne of shadow. Once again I don't have my books here with me to verify the info.

[Mentalist]

The Dragon's name was Sorritt... and i think that it was only 1 of the 2 alligned with Serc. Besides, Serc is still accesible to humans, so not sure if we can say that KCCM usurped it....

[Optimus Prime]

Not to get off topic but didn't Rake fight with Mother Dark over whatever happened to Andarist?

Regarding the warrens, we just need more information about the KCCM and the KCNR...and of course the FA...it makes sense that humans know so little about these races (in addition to the TTT) and their magical warrens....they were mentioned as "mythical" in the first few book glossaries after all....

[Gibby]

kud13;237527 said:

The Dragon's name was Sorritt... and i think that it was only 1 of the 2 alligned with Serc. Besides, Serc is still accesible to humans, so not sure if we can say that KCCM usurped it....

Well, maybe they used Sorritt's power to charge the keeps?

Also, as we learn in this book, there are (well, were) a lot more dragons than we probably previously thought (Silchas and crew in Starveld). Maybe each keep had its own dead dragon or something.

[Aptorian]

Imagine if the dragons in the SD learned that their brood had killed Sorrit? I don't think the KCCM would risk that anger. At least not back then.

I think Sorrit was killed not so long ago. Maybe it was by the KCCM but it wasn't a part of some skykeep productionline.

[Mentalist]

Gibby;238093 said:

Well, maybe they used Sorritt's power to charge the keeps?

Also, as we learn in this book, there are (well, were) a lot more dragons than we probably previously thought (Silchas and crew in Starveld). Maybe each keep had its own dead dragon or something.

Well, while there may be a lot more dragons, only 20-30 tops were actually used to make/shape/power the warrens. Those are the powerful ones...we assume that nost of the rest are "feral", so not nearly as powerful.....

[Optimus Prime]

I would assume the difference between Dragons and "Feral" ones is the ability to use magic and overall power levels. Feral Dragons would be much more animal like and predatory....not nearly as calculating.

However...when a lot of them got together they could be very formidable

[Sinisdar Toste]

yes the dragons that k'rul used to shape the warrens would be a lot more powerful and intelligent, god-kissed type beings, because they could probably employ multiple warrens. we have seen dragons aspected to multiple warrens so i dont think its unrealistic, all the feral ones would have is SD.

iirc the role of the eleint who k'rul chose was to be the channels for his blood into human beings hands, keep the streams seperate. but what about the dragons who do this for multiple warrens? do the streams mix, or is it balanced by the multiple dragons for one warren aspect of the system?

[Lisheo]

KCCM: Their warren was called Kaschan, as we found out in MT, and we also found out it was gravity or sound based... Which, I think, makes their killing of Sorrit possible, because Serc is the closest thing to flight. Maybe it was even the Elder equivalent of Sorrit. Deprived of their warren, a KCCM matron hunted down a source of similar ower, killed it, and drank its draconic blood, perhaps allowing them to use Serc instead of Kaschan or chaos?
I reckon each dragon probably only personifies one aspect of each warren, which balances it. Although Im just going by gut instinct here.

[Mataglap]

Icarium and Mappo didn't think the KCCM killed Sorrit

"The Bonehunters, on Chapter Six", said:

'The K'Chain Che'Malle did not kill Sorrit,' Icarium said. 'They knew nothing of it.'

'Yet this creature here was frozen, so it must have been encompassed in the Jaghut's ritual of Omtose Phellack — how could the K'Chain Che'Malle not have known of this? They must have, even if they themselves did not slay Sorrit.'

'No, they are innocent, Mappo. I am certain of it.'

'Then... how?'

'The crucifix, it is Blackwood. From the realm of the Tiste Edur. From the Shadow Realm, Mappo. In that realm, as you know, things can be in two places at once, or begin in one yet find itself eventually manifesting in another. Shadow wanders, and respects no borders.'

'Ah, then... this... was trapped here, drawn from Shadow—'

'Snared by the Jaghut's ice magic — yet the spilled blood, and perhaps the otataral, proved too fierce for Omtose Phellack, thus shattering the Jaghut's enchantment.'

'Sorrit was murdered in the Shadow Realm. Yes. Now the pattern, Icarium, grows that much clearer.'

[Lisheo]

What Edurs killed her? What Shadow creatures? Surely not ST and Cotty.

[Aptorian]

it makes you wonder when it happened. The scene made me think it was a recent event but the quote above (thanks by the way) mentions that Sorrit was frozen in a Jaghut ritual.

Sounds like it's been along time since there were any lizardkeeps flying around for the Jaghut to chill. And why was the keep frozen? Did it just get caught in the Jaghut Pogroms or has the Jaghut intentionally been watching warren traffic and stopping the KCCM when ever they try to enter Wu ever since the elder times?