[Gossamer]

When reading RG I didn't really get the Shake people. They had Tiste ancestry right, way back when? And they had/have to watch the shore for something presumably bad..which is probably connected to the demon babies ("demon-kissed children") that come from the sea.

"The demons had been pure, once. Birthing their own kind, a world of mothers and offspring. The seeds had dwelt in the sea found in demonic wombs. Until the war that saw the bellies of those mothers slit open, spilling what belonged inside out into this world-the seeds even the sea sought to reject. A war of slaughter-yet the demons had found a way to survive, to this very day."
Anyone else think it's a reference to the KCCm vs. shorttails war?

[Clip]

Well, the seeds are somesort of parsitic offspring of a KCCM Matron that survive in the sea by infecting othr lifeforms, or something similar. When they infected a Shake baby that child was deformed with chaotic power, or something like that.

But I hadn't thought that it could be a reference to the Short-Tail rebellion, they did kill a few matrons didn't they? Not sure what it means for the overall storyline, but it is interesting.

[Onos]

Just reread that point myself and was thinking what it could mean. I cant come up with anything better than Kchain connection.

Hmmm how do shorttails reproduce? Long tails have matrons... Either way that story i am sure was warped in some way via the ravages of time to confuse us.

[cerveza_fiesta]

"The demons had been pure, once. Birthing their own kind, a world of mothers and offspring. "

- The mothers and offspring part suggests matrons and the normal KCCM in particular. In the KCCM world, aren't all the offspring children of the matrons - like in an ant colony?

"The seeds had dwelt in the sea found in demonic wombs."

It says the sea found in demonic wombs, suggesting that the sea is within the womb itself...like amniotic-fluid, not the ocean. The seeds are found in the demons' wombs and are supposedly some form of impurity or infection.

"Until the war that saw the bellies of those mothers slit open, spilling what belonged inside out into this world-the seeds even the sea sought to reject."

So the wars killed the matrons...blah blah. The wombs split, the fluids spilled into the world, along with the seed. The line even the sea sought to reject reinforces that the amniotic fluid was trying to purge or reject the impurity or infection of the seed.

"A war of slaughter-yet the demons had found a way to survive, to this very day."

This line doesn't fit with the above, except to say the KCCM are still alive, with no reference to the seed.


In light of this, I'd say the seed is some sort of chaotic impurity that escaped the KCCM matrons when they were slaughtered and was carried to the ocean by rains or some such thing. The shake are all about living by the sea, so I guess some horny shake couple did-it in the ocean and got a demon baby, starting the whole occasional demon baby thing.

[SiriusL]

I wonder if this is related to the little lizard machines that Samar Dev found inside the Short-tail that Karsa killed in BH. Maybe the seeds are the Short-tails, and that's why the Matrons considered them impurities.

I'm still confused by the whole thing, though. Are the demon-babies some kind of genetic hybrid of human and KCCM? IIRC, the Shake are part Andii. A little too much impurity, methinks.

One other thing--did anyone else think of Soleil and Poleil when the Shake lizard-toe people were described?

[Lister of Smeg]

I agree with SiriusL about it being related to those things Samar Dev found. They died pretty quickly when she cut that KCCM open, so maybe they only survive in liquid? So they fall into the sea and then swim up into the wombs.

[Gem Windcaster]

Lister of Smeg;220940 said:

I agree with SiriusL about it being related to those things Samar Dev found. They died pretty quickly when she cut that KCCM open, so maybe they only survive in liquid? So they fall into the sea and then swim up into the wombs.

Ewww, that sounds even creepier than Alien.

[Urb]

This reminds me of when Onrack met Trull:

HoC page 327 paperback said:

'Onrack. Clanless, of the Logros.'
'I am Trull Sengar. Also clanless.'
Onrack stared down at the Tiste Edur for a while. Then the T'lan Imass stepped over the man and set off, retracing their path. He arrived among the catfish. A single chop downward severed the head of the nearest one.
The slaying triggered a frenzy among the others. Skin split, sleek four-limbed bodies tore their way free. Broad, needle-fanged heads swung towards the undead warrior in their midst, tiny eyes glistening. Loud hisses from all sides. The beasts moved on squat, muscular legs, three-toed feet thickly padded and clawed. Their tails were short, extending in a vertical fin back up their spines.
They attacked as would wolves closing on wounded prey.
Obsidian blade flashed. Thin blood sprayed. Heads and limbs flopped about.
One of the creatures launched itself into the air, huge mouth closing over Onrack's skull. As its full weight descended, the T'lan Imass felt his neck vertebrae creak and grind. He fell backward, letting the animal drag him down.
Then he dissolved into dust.
And rose five paces away to resume his killing, wading among the hissing survivors. A few moments later they were all dead.

[Lancelot]

True. And the Shake witches that spoke to Twilight had "Clawed" Toes. Good Catch.

[Binder of Demons]

I don't know where this quote is from exactly, but can we confirm that the line is actually

Quote

The seeds had dwelt in the sea found in demonic wombs.

and not

Quote

The seeds had dwelt in the sea, found in demonic wombs.

as a single comma completely changes the emphasis.

The only other notion I'd have then, is whether the comment

Quote

the seeds even the sea sought to reject.

might then refer to Mael having an interest in this. If it is to do with the KCCM, do we know if Mael ever opposed them?

I am just starting to re-read RG, so i'll keep much more of an eye out for the Shake references now.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Binder of Demons;221161 said:

...as a single comma completely changes the emphasis.

I'm pretty sure of the lack of comma. Adding a comma not only changes the emphasis, but makes the whole sentence not make sense anymore.

[cerveza_fiesta]

I just had a thought on my breakdown above. I say that the last line doesn't really tie in with the rest of the paragraph, but maybe it means that the seed is surviving in the KCCM to this day. That the seed was spilled is irrelevant, because its still alive in the surviving matrons...biding its time before emerging and wreaking havoc.

One of those "I'll get you next time gadget! NEXT TIIIIIIIME!" moments

[Abyss]

My take on the whole thing was that somewhere along the way, the original KC civilization was taken over by the Matrons. Pre-takeover, they were more or less along the lines of the two who accompany Redmask, ie: Males and females in some power structure different from what we learned in MoI, where the Matron's control is so thorough she can raise up dead KC to serve her. Keeping in mind that RM's two friends are NOT Short-tail KN, i think this original conflict amongst the KC goes even further back.

Fast fwd a few millenia, Rake's first wave of Tiste arrive and apparently do not clash with the Matron/KC that we know of.

Fwd a few more millenia, the Matrons have taken over KC civilization, the Scabby/Silch Tiste invade, the KN are brought back and revolt. So the Tiste/KC/KN conflict goes down all over the world.

The Shake, a people from Rake's Tiste wave with a history of conflict with the KC, had developed a tactic of killing immature KC as they surface at the shoreline, before the Matrons take control.

The Tiste Matron conflict ends with the Matrons dead/gone, the remaining KC and/or KN apparently fled the world (possibly for them moon) or hiding somewhere.

The Shake's practice of killing imature KC gets changed with time and diluted of purpose. Humans and Shake/Andii interbreed. Some other elements, possibly mutant KC, enter into the mix, possibly due to KC larvae 'infecting' Tiste or humans (LEES OF LAUGHTER'S END has a hint towards this).

Fwd again, humans arise, interbreed with Tiste. Some conflict with the remaining KC comes up. Redmask's human people develop one effective way of fighting them with specialized weapons and running really fast for your life. The KC go back into hiding.

Fwd again, MoI, a Matron is pulled out of the Rift at Morn and raises her undead Kell. She ends up squished by Moon's Spawn.

Fwd again, TB, a stray KN imprisoned by the NOs is released by wandering 7C morons and skull punched to death by Karsa. Jade chunks hit the moon and 12 or so skykeeps full of KC and/or KN show up in the Imperial Warren.

Finally, RG - two live, apprently not Matron controlled KC of either gender show up on Leth working with RM, then kill him.

- Abyss, isn't even going to get into the 'First spawn of dragons' thing, but figures that predates all the above.

[Skywalker]

Abyss;221579 said:

Fast fwd a few millenia, Rake's first wave of Tiste arrive and apparently do not clash with the Matron/KC that we know of.

Fwd a few more millenia, the Matrons have taken over KC civilization, the Scabby/Silch Tiste invade, the KN are brought back and revolt. So the Tiste/KC/KN conflict goes down all over the world.

I was under the impression that the KCCM/ KCNR civil war was already on when the Tiste invaded?

[Abyss]

sky_walker;221625 said:

I was under the impression that the KCCM/ KCNR civil war was already on when the Tiste invaded?

imnsho, it's not really clear. Another possible interpretation is that the Matrons only brought back the KN because the Tiste invaded.

- Abyss, plays fast and loose with the timeline.

[Aptorian]

I don't think the above is true. The Tiste invasion(s) were only a succes because the KCCM were fighting internally, perhaps already then fading away.

I think Scabby or Ruin, or maybe Mael and Gothos touch upon this in the prologue of MT.

[Skywalker]

Aptorian;221667 said:

I think Scabby or Ruin, or maybe Mael and Gothos touch upon this in the prologue of MT.

Ooooh... found a quote in the MT prologue.

Quote

Scabandari to Silchas: ‘The K’Chain Che’Malle are all but gone - we know this. We have seen the many other dead cities. Now, only Morn remains, and that on a distant continent - where the Short-Tails even now break their chains in bloody rebellion. A divided enemy is an enemy quick to fall, my friend. Who else in this world has the power to oppose us? Jaghut? They are scattered and few. Imass? What can weapons of stone achieve against our iron?’ He was silent a moment, then continued, ‘The Forkrul Assail seem unwilling to pass judgement on us. And each year there seem to be fewer and fewer of them in any case...

GASP! The Cat was wrong

[Aptorian]

Of course he was, he is a crippled feline, always listen to Quick Apt

Now if you'll just look at this brochure I've got this really cheap bridge for sale, it's in San Francisco...

[Zanth13]

sky_walker;221678 said:

Ooooh... found a quote in the MT prologue.



GASP! The Cat was wrong

mmm He said Imass was he talking about the Tlan Imass or humanish ones...

and it seemed to me that an ascendant just showed some healthy fear of the FA, a paraphrase would be "thank god the FA dont bother us, luckily they will keep getting smaller and smaller in number it looks, so we wont have to worry about them for to long much longer"

-Abyss wasnt wrong, SE was... he just doesnt know it yet....
I wish I had 12 livers like Apt... I think ive given mine to much punishment...

[Skywalker]

Sounded pre-ritual to me... since the Jaghut aren't "all but extinct..." only "scattered and few"