[Silencer]

One thing that often occurs in the series is changing power levels. In RG Quick managed to bring down 3 soletaken in like 10 seconds, in GotM Raest took 3hours (or thereabouts) to take out 5 soletaken and a pureblood Eleint. So who's better? It's hard to tell, and we've never seen Gothos actually fight. We just all think, for some of the reasons stated above, that he would win.

[Aptorian]

Tyrant power evidence. It's not really a spoiler, but I'll put it in a box anyway

Spoiler

There's a Jaghut Tyrant in NoK called Jhenna. She demonstrates the very same talents Rhaest did in GotM, and she's a lot cooler than Raest. (hee, hee see what I did there)

I don't think Raest was any more special than any other Jaghut Tyrant.

Gothos has been mentioned as an ascendant. There is some speculation that a Jaghut Tyrant is just a powerfull ascendant Jaghut.

I think it would be a fight like any other in the Malazan universe, it wouldn't pan out like any one expected and all that would be left was a big azath and a mule "hee, haw"ing in the background.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Aptorian;217242 said:

I don't think Raest was any more special than any other Jaghut Tyrant.

Not so sure. Several facts point to Raest's exceptional status. For example, the Jaghut and the Imass had to put aside their differences and unite to take him down. That does not seem to have been the case with other Tyrants.

Also, Tool was quite happy to free a Tyrant for the Malazan Empire when he first met Lorn in GotM. But when he arrived at the tomb, and came to suspect which particular Tyrant this was, well, lets just say he got cold feet.

As far as Jaghut Tyrants go, I would propose that Raest was #1.

[Dragnipurake]

yes, both GOTM and MOI refer to it that other jaghut had come united to bring down Raest.

Spoiler

Anyway, what did jhenna do in NOK other than fight with temper and the other two characters?

and Raest is one of the coolest names in the series, if not the coolest:D

[Sinisdar Toste]

very reminiscent of raistlin 'raist' in the dragonlance books. and he was the most powerful mage of the whole series, killed the whole pantheon

[Mentalist]

Well' technically that future was averted.. not to mention he wiped out almost all life in the process.. and all he got in return was an hourglass constellation...

[Gem Windcaster]

Hmm, I don't really see Raest as that powerful at all. He didn't manage to do the damage he wanted - basically he got owned.

[Mentalist]

Well, he DID destroy a valuable bridge that set in motion all sorts of events, according to one Imrygyn Tallobant....

[Dolorous Menhir]

Gem Windcaster;217398 said:

Hmm, I don't really see Raest as that powerful at all. He didn't manage to do the damage he wanted - basically he got owned.

Uh...

Do you remember the part where he took on five dragons and won? And made it look easy?

[Gem Windcaster]

Dolorous Menhir;217433 said:

Uh...

Do you remember the part where he took on five dragons and won? And made it look easy?

When was that, I don't remember...?

[Dolorous Menhir]

That's a joke, right?

[Silencer]

I got the impression that the whole point of Raest (like the D'ivers T'rohlbarahl), was to show that what used to be all-powerful beings are now not so crash-hot as they once were...
Hence, the Adjunct expected Anomander to fight Raest, because he was the only one who could stop him. Instead he gets taken out by two human mages (albeit one is QB), and a cusser! And his finnest gets taken out by a semi-shapechanging mortal too.
As for the dragons - they weren't as powerful as they could have been, and QB (once again a human mage) took out three soletaken dragons really easily...

-Silencer, anyway..........................

[Gem Windcaster]

Yeah, that's what I have been thinking too, Silencer. The old powers are constantly meeting their match in new powers. Legends are just that - legends. And they seem to believe their own legends - then get that surprised look on their face when they are owned.

What someone has done in the past says nothing about how powerful they are now. They are still very powerful, but sometimes not powerful enough to face the changing Wu.

[Mentalist]

heh, well in this case that would apply equally well to both Gothos and Raest... in fact, relatively speaking, Raest might be "Younger"....

but i agree with your point Gem. Onc someone becomes the biggestbadass with no one willing to challenge them (read-reputation of a "legend"), they begin to stagnate. Such self-confidence leads to decadence and then you end up like the 3 sisters--torn apart by sibling rivalry and 2 Imass Bonecasters....

[Dolorous Menhir]

Raest wasn't beaten by Quick Ben. QB merely stalled him for a short time, with emphasis on the short. QB didn't beat Raest any more than he beat Icarium.

Raest wasn't beaten by the Moranth munitions either. The destruction of Mammot's body knocked Raest back for a while, but it wasn't a serious blow to him.

It was the Azath that took him. The others (the dragons, QB, the cusser, Tool and Paran fighting the finnest) may have weakened him, but Raest was not stopped by them. It took the Azath to stop him.

I'm not convinced that the "old powers beaten by the new" theme really applies here. Raest wasn't beaten because he wasn't ready for the new world, and he wasn't beaten because he was old and stagnant. He lost because an entire Azath House sprung up with the express purpose of neutralising him. And since Azaths are not "new" in any way, it's not really accurate to say that he was defeated by the modern powers.

Also, I'm not sure why you write off the dragons so fast, Silencer. Even if we set aside the four Soletaken Tiste Andii dragons, we still saw Raest wipe the floor with a full blood Eleint. How many other characters have we seen that can do that (apart from Rake & Kilmandaros)? I'm certainly not convinced that Quick Ben could do something like that, and certainly not the Quick Ben of GotM.

[Silencer]

I can certainly see where you are coming from, DM. But don't forget as well - QB could only use 7 of his warrens in this (for some strange GotMism reason).

We haven't seen any other characters fight full-blooded Eleint - mainly because they are all hiding/dead. Of course (and this is truly wild speculation), Anomander is soletaken, and he can beat full-blooded dragons. Therefore (although the soletaken Raest fought and the soletaken QB fought are probably, almost certainly not Rake's level), are Soletaken stronger than pure?

As for the cusser not being a serious blow to Raest - how many of those do you think Fid had? He could have bombarded the guy quite a bit, and given that two of them knocked Ruin down, it could probably have done some serious harm.

And K'rul specifically said to [someone] that the mortal world was more prepared for Raest than he thought.
I'll look up the exact quote if you want...

Remember - we're looking at a being who has never faced challenge before, except the alliance of many Jaghut and Imass - and that was when he was imprisoned. For what, 3, maybe four people to put him down, even for a short time? That would have been EPIC back in the day.


But, as you say, they didn't officially beat him - they just held him long enough for the Azath to grow and take him. But who knows, the prescence of a couple of other High Mages, two more cussers? We aren't told the exact extent of his damage. But it seemed to me that he didn't exactly pwn anyone.

One thing we can agree on though, is that the GotM Quick is no where near the same guy we see later, particularly Bonehunters onwards....

[Lisheo]

Gothos is Gothos. Hes Eriksons fav Ascendant. Whereas Raest slept in a tomb for a few years, bruised a few Soletaken Eleint Andii, and Silannah, then got owned. Gothos stopped Death in an entire continent. Raest is Paran's manservant. Do I have to say more?

[Mentalist]

Nope, It's all perfectly clear--Paran is awesome, and being his manservant Raest automatically receives a fraction of same awesomeness, making him fully able to wipe out Gothos....
Thank you, Lisheo, for proving my point, lol

[Gem Windcaster]

Lisheo;217567 said:

Gothos is Gothos. Hes Eriksons fav Ascendant. Whereas Raest slept in a tomb for a few years, bruised a few Soletaken Eleint Andii, and Silannah, then got owned. Gothos stopped Death in an entire continent. Raest is Paran's manservant. Do I have to say more?

Exactly! Besides Gothos chose to move to the Azath - Raest didn't. And I have a feeling that being in an Azath will improve people. Being close to an Azaath is like being close to the most powerful source in Wu.

[Vengeance]

I think that we might be forgetting about someone. Namely HOOD he was (it is generally agreed upon) the figure at the heart of the realm of Ice. So by all account that would make him a serious bad ass Jaghut. Now he migrated to the realm of Death and has really only grown in power. Might it not if he was hard pressed call upon both Death and Omtose Phellack. I think that Hood could take both of them hands down.