[tharinock]

It bothers me when people say, "Judas betrayed jesus, and judas was a jew, therefore jews betrayed jesus." That was because christians did not yet exist. just jews that did believe in christ and those that did not. Judas did believe in christ and was in fact one of his closest followers and chosen by the omniscent jesus for some reason. thus the man who betrayed jesus was clearly the closest thing at the time to official christianity.

[dktorode]

Once a Jew always a Jew i say

[Dolorous Menhir]

Ross Noble said it best:

"Who would win in a fight, Jesus or Spiderman?

Spiderman.

Why?

BECAUSE JESUS WASN'T REAL!"

[Goaswerfraiejen]

tharinock;215807 said:

It bothers me when people say, "Judas betrayed jesus, and judas was a jew, therefore jews betrayed jesus." That was because christians did not yet exist. just jews that did believe in christ and those that did not. Judas did believe in christ and was in fact one of his closest followers and chosen by the omniscent jesus for some reason. thus the man who betrayed jesus was clearly the closest thing at the time to official christianity.

While that particular argument may bother you, it's not what's usually meant by people who say that the Jews betrayed Christ. Rather, they tend to refer to when the mob in Jerusalem was given the choice of freeing Christ or Barabbas, and they chose Barabbas. It is usually pointed out in this context that Barabbas was a murderer (or bandit, or insurrectionist; depends on the Gospel and on the translation), whereas Jesus preached love and peace and so on. We tend to glide over the fact that Barabbas was in fact (or at least seems to have been) a Jewish hero of sorts, a "freedom fighter" (terrorist; sicarii) against the Roman occupation of Jerusalem. Now, obviously the story of Barabbas is a huge bone of contention among Bible scholars, but suffice it to say that the Jewish "crime" referred to is usually the freeing of Barabbas at the passover feast, not Judas' betrayal. And it's easy to see why: Judas was an individual acting alone, whereas Barabbas was freed by the mob, the common folk (and their common opinion).

[Astra]

Goaswerfraiejen;218196 said:

they tend to refer to when the mob in Jerusalem was given the choice of freeing Christ or Barabbas, and they chose Barabbas.

I am no pro in religion but that's my understand of the saying as well.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I know hardly anything about religion, but if Jesus was starting a new faith, i.e. christianity, then I assume it wasn't really up to the jews to stick by him. I may be completely wrong, but if that is the case, then the jews didn't betray him, he betrayed them.

[Morgoth]

not to mention that the Romans were almost fanatic in their devotion to keeping records, yet no record - apart from the bible - exist which mention this tradition of releasing one prisoner on that day.

My impression is rather that this was added to make romans more noble and thus make it easier to pitch christianity to them

[drinksinbars]

added to the fact that if he didnt die he couldnt have resurrected and that story would have been fairly anticlimatic.

[Cause]

Its not every people who gets to claim they killed a god, its not easy Ill tell you, please dont take it away from us. If you do just imagine what we can do to you. We killed a god you know.

[Banana]

what bothers me, and i'm sure a lot of you all too, isn't about whether or not the jewish people killed Jesus but the fact that people today still blame them for it. It's not as though any of the jews who (supposedly) betrayed/killed Jesus are alive nowadays anyway. It'd be like me being ostracized because my ancestors owned slaves or attacked and pillaged someone else's ancestors.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

Banana;218741 said:

what bothers me, and i'm sure a lot of you all too, isn't about whether or not the jewish people killed Jesus but the fact that people today still blame them for it. It's not as though any of the jews who (supposedly) betrayed/killed Jesus are alive nowadays anyway. It'd be like me being ostracized because my ancestors owned slaves or attacked and pillaged someone else's ancestors.

You mean like George Bush and Tony Blair being forced to apoligise for the Slave Trade? It was one of histories greatest evils... but it wasn't their fault. Maybe we can find a way to blame the jews for that

[Astra]

The Tyrant Lizard;218754 said:

You mean like George Bush and Tony Blair being forced to apoligise for the Slave Trade? It was one of histories greatest evils... but it wasn't their fault. Maybe we can find a way to blame the jews for that

I am here should you need one

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I hereby blame astra lestat for all the wrong doings of the evil slave traders.

shame on you!

[D Man]

Everyone knows Jesus was betrayed by the Betalgeusians when the captain of the mothership he came in on was commanded by the flying spagehetti monster to leave the system, and their ships tea boy, who was on shore leave screwing around with the natives, to his fate.

[Banana]

The Tyrant Lizard said:

You mean like George Bush and Tony Blair being forced to apoligise for the Slave Trade? It was one of histories greatest evils... but it wasn't their fault. Maybe we can find a way to blame the jews for that

yeah that shit is crazy. Here in the States we still have people seeking monetary reparations from the government because their ancestors were slaves.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

There is a difference between the two situations: one is widespread state-sponsored immoral activity, and the other is the result of a crowd mentality. I think that states should attempt to redress past wrongs--take native americans, for example. We stole their land (and I don't mean by warfare, but by deceit, dishonest and unclear contracts, etc.) and forced them to live in "reservations," which are basically zoo-like slums. We definitely owe them a little more than an apology. The problem is, of course, where to draw the line; but I think that it usually draws itself.

[tharinock]

as for slave trade, African tradition was to conqueror neighboring tribes and enslave the people, and many africans sold slaves to americans.

Back to the main issue, why would jews want to keep jesus alive? let's assume that anyone living at that time who believed in jesus can be called christian and thus are not considered jews. Jews have no reason to care about Jesus. they would not go through effort of saving someone else's savior. That would be like asking a religious christian to save Mohammed (sorry if i spelled it wrong). Could muslims then claim christians betrayed Mohammed?

[lokiman]

The thing with jesus is he had to die. He knew he had to die, to act as a sacrafice. Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray him, he sorta needed him for the whole sacrafice thing.

[amphibian]

tharinock;219127 said:

Back to the main issue, why would jews want to keep jesus alive? let's assume that anyone living at that time who believed in jesus can be called christian and thus are not considered jews. Jews have no reason to care about Jesus. they would not go through effort of saving someone else's savior.

The followers of Jesus did not officially consider themselves wholly distinct from the main body of Jews until maybe sixty or seventy years after the death of their leader.

If you look at the gospels, the earlier ones (Mark, probably the first canonical one written, and Matthew, the most "Jewish") make a point of emphasizing the fulfillment of Jewish prophecies by Jesus and his keeping of law and tradition. The later ones (Luke and John, both written at least seventy or so years after ) have this note of growing separation and stress different elements of the life of Jesus.

What angered the main body of Jews was both the seeming disrespect Jesus and his followers displayed for the order of things and the "usual" claim of fulfilling the messianic prophecies. Back then, almost every year somebody came along, claimed to be the anointed descendant of David, got a decent-sized group of people together and generally raised some havoc.

From what I understand, Jesus was actually building a pretty strong group and may have been the best at gathering and keeping followers of the many messiahs at that time.

[tharinock]

Also from what I understand Jesus died to repent for all of humanity's sins. Jews should be THANKED for killing Jesus if they really betrayed him. after all, if jesus did not die for our sins, then we would all go to hell.