[Bauchelain the Evil]

I'll put a word in this because I tink that after four long years of catechism i can understand all of it.
About the thing with Barabba we must remember that the Romas weren't so loved by the Jews and as Barabba was opposing them he was a kind of hero for the population.Jesus instead was a peace-talking guy exactly when Jews couldn' t give more or less for peace and to cap it all he was considered a blasphemous guy!
And I still don' t get why Christians( especially catholics) are angry about this.Wakey wakey! Christian religion is completely based on Jesus being reborn so if Jesus hadn' t died Christians wouldn' t exist! We could all still be kneeling to Jupiter, Juno and the like.

_______________________

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You cant be serious!
Death is always serious

Paran and Hood

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This rain will make the sea rise, yes?

Mallick Rel to Pearl

[amphibian]

BauchelaintheEvil;288935 said:

Christian religion is completely based on Jesus being reborn

No, it's not.

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so if Jesus hadn' t died Christians wouldn' t exist! We could all still be kneeling to Jupiter, Juno and the like.

Yeah, and if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a bus.

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I'll put a word in this because I tink that after four long years of catechism i can understand all of it.

Four years wasn't enough in your case. Catechism is designed to bring people deeper into Christianity with an organic understanding of the textual, spiritual and practical elements of the religion, usually as delivered by a volunteer. Who delivers the catechism matters, because it often becomes a series of questions and answers memorized and absent of any real thinking - much like what goes on in Islamic madrassas elsewhere.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

The idea that Jews betrayed Jesus comes from more than Judas, or the mob who chose to free Barabas. The bigwig Jewish priests also were trying to do away with Jesus, as he was not exactly keeping it kosher as far as following jewish law.

But really, it was the Romans who were ultimately responsible. He called himself King of the Jews in an area controlled by the Romans, which they saw as treason. If any modern people should be blamed, it's the italian descendants of the Romans.

However, since according to the story, it was necessary for Jesus to be crucified to save everyone's soul, isn't it a good thing that they got him?

[Cold Iron]

I think it was Paul who did away with Jewish law when building the new church after Jesus' death (and at odd's with Jesus' brother James, who arguably followed more closely to his actual ministries).

Also, I've seen it posited that Jesus was built up as a peace lover much later in Rome as it became clear that the cult was not going away and it needed to be controlled. This rather than the inciter of revolts which would seem to match the circumstances surrounding his death.

[Tiste Simeon]

The Tyrant Lizard said:

I know hardly anything about religion, but if Jesus was starting a new faith, i.e. christianity, then I assume it wasn't really up to the jews to stick by him. I may be completely wrong, but if that is the case, then the jews didn't betray him, he betrayed them.

Interesting point actually... But Jesus didn't betray them. They were waiting for their messiah and when He came along, they didn't like it because He didn't fit with their comfortable notions and religious ways. So they turned their back on Him. Hence, they betrayed Him. But that meant that the love of God was opened up to everyone, not just Jews...

Argh, and I promised myself never to get involved in the DB again.

[Obdigore]

Tiste Simeon;300326 said:

Interesting point actually... But Jesus didn't betray them. They were waiting for their messiah and when He came along, they didn't like it because He didn't fit with their comfortable notions and religious ways. So they turned their back on Him. Hence, they betrayed Him. But that meant that the love of God was opened up to everyone, not just Jews...

Argh, and I promised myself never to get involved in the DB again.

And the Jewish people do not believe that Jesus was said Messiah. There can be no 'religious betrayal' if you do not believe that the 'messiah' is real. If he is a fake, then the jewish elders were pretty damn tolerant since he was changing things very rapidly on them.

Tiste, you believe polygamist cults are wrong, I would hazard to guess. The polygamists (many of them) believe it is right. The government forcing them to stop and possibly killing the leader who won't surrender is THE SAME THING as the story of jesus, to someone who dosen't believe either are correct.

I am not trying to be a pedantic dick, just attempting to point out that it was only a 'betrayal' if you as a nation/religion believe that he was the messiah. The jewish people do not, and so there was no 'betrayal' at all.

[Cold Iron]

Thanks captain obvious

[Obdigore]

No problem CI, anything to help the home team....

[Tiste Simeon]

Obdigore said:

And the Jewish people do not believe that Jesus was said Messiah. There can be no 'religious betrayal' if you do not believe that the 'messiah' is real. If he is a fake, then the jewish elders were pretty damn tolerant since he was changing things very rapidly on them.

Tiste, you believe polygamist cults are wrong, I would hazard to guess. The polygamists (many of them) believe it is right. The government forcing them to stop and possibly killing the leader who won't surrender is THE SAME THING as the story of jesus, to someone who dosen't believe either are correct.

I am not trying to be a pedantic dick, just attempting to point out that it was only a 'betrayal' if you as a nation/religion believe that he was the messiah. The jewish people do not, and so there was no 'betrayal' at all.

Fair enough, though I saw that in the first post it was claimed that Christians betrayed Jesus, because it was Judas. Who was a jew. And yes I know he makes that point, but as a race, it was the Jewish people who sent Jesus to His death...

Plus surely there is some form of betrayal with the fact that they couldn't find anything wrong with Him, and He wasn't trying to incite violent rebellion...

[Cold Iron]

Tiste Simeon;301899 said:

Plus surely there is some form of betrayal with the fact that they couldn't find anything wrong with Him, and He wasn't trying to incite violent rebellion...

Umm...

John 2/15 said:

And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

Matthew 10/34-35 said:

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Luke 19/27 said:

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.

Are you sure?

[amphibian]

Cold Iron;302079 said:

Umm... Are you sure?

Mark is generally accepted by most scholars to be the the first gospel in chronological order - though all were written decades after the supposed time of Jesus and all present slightly different versions of events - and is thought to be the most "Jewish" in tone. I am trying to say that the author of Mark puts a higher priority on peacefulness and Jewish prophecies than the others do. The other three, Matthew, Luke and John, were written later and I see them as written to followers of a religion trying to separate itself from Judaism and position itself as its own powerful entity.

So... tackle the gospels with a wary eye and use what you know of human nature to flesh out the gaps and make sense of the contradictions.

If three of them say that Jesus was making some noise with violence, then yeah, that's somewhat credible, as long as we remember that we're talking about a 2,000 year old religious figure here.

[Cold Iron]

I myself am not atheist, but I can tell you, this is a perfect example of why atheists ridicule religious people. Allow me to paraphrase:

"Jesus is peaceful"
"How do you know?"
"It's in the bible"
"Well, what about these parts?"
"Those parts aren't the good parts, ignore them"

Personally, I think it's more likely that the real Jesus was trying to incite violent rebellion. But it's not relevant because the Jesus that is worshiped is not the same as the real Jesus. The story became a combination of what people wanted to hear and what authority figures needed to tell them. Peace is good, we should worship a peaceful god. And if worshipers of Jesus say he is peaceful, then he is, regardless of whether Yeshur (or whatever) was.

[Cold Iron]

I mentioned something about this before. Link: http://www.caesarsme...h.com/main.html

thoughts?

[Shinrei]

The phrase most often used to refute the idea of Jesus as a violent revolutionary is the passage phrase Matthew 22:21

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”

[Cold Iron]

Um. So no comments on the titus thing?

[Bent]

You poor poor misguided people..The jews are seen as betraying Jesus, because in the jewish faith they are told that a messiah will come among them. They choose to disbelieve Christ as the true messiah and Son of God. They saw and still see him as a prophet, no better than Abraham. This is the betrayal. He stood before them and said that he was the son of man, and the son of god. They betrayed him by not believing. Any Christian follower has this choice as well. If we turn away from him, this is blasheming the holy spirit and the bible tells us that this is the only unforgivable sin.

Misguided and uneducated, immature Christians do not know this and so are called out by non christians as being terribly wrong. Most are, and have no way to correct the mistake as they don't know te correct answer. I myself am still very young in my christian life, but I suppose what bothers me most about athiests or polygamists etc. is the fact that I have to stand there and defend the action of every Christian, while they only answer to themselves. As a Christian man, I take this responsibility seriously, and will not back down in the face of such scrutiny, I believe in my heart that as long as we as a people strive to do more, and act right, in the name of GOD, that we will come out of such trails stronger and more able to respond in the future, to such questions.

I am not trying to preach here, but it really bothers me, how everyone questions christianity, but we are forced to accept every other religion, or we are bad. I mean come on, there are several religions that are based on humanism, but no one questions these ideals and theories, no to do that would be to pick on them. But everyone picks apart my faith, and any response I have, is seen as either stupid, or weak. I understand this, because my religion is FAITH based, I believe without seeing, without touching, and this ,to most of you, seems folly. Well, I have felt a power greater than myself, and I have seen powers that have no explanation. And in that, I feel that there is a God, and Jesus was the Messiah.

I know, some of you don't understand, but I can't let you go on like this, without at least trying to explain the depth of my personal belief system. I am not trying to be offensive, nor am I offended, but if I don't at least try to explain myself, you will never know.

~Because, believe it or not, I am a bit more intelligent than I let on sometimes.

[Cold Iron]

We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass away. (Zhuangzi 369 BC - 286 BC)

Bent, I'm not saying that you're wrong, just that your certainty is fuelled by emotion rather than reason. And as such, it will change as you change.

Ultimately the only truths in religion are the truths of how they make you feel.

[Bent]

I humbly disagree, my belief system will always be the same. The categories of such may change. i.e Did Judas go to hell, Is suicide unforgivable, etc. But the basics, how do I get to heaven, is God real, Was Jesus the son of God etc. will not ever change.

You see, as a born again Christian, no amount of scientific evidence would ever convince me to change my beliefs. As a matter of fact I believe that Science is fallible, where as my belief system isn't. I do feel passionately about this, as it seems that sometimes I am the only person around(in the forum as well as where I live, my friends etc. ) to believe in these things. However, it is more than passion that leads me to this.

For instance, the question was why do people believe that jews betrayed jesus....in order to argue this fact you must a) assume Jesus was real and assume that the bible is a true account. Athiests in this thread, have argued the fact that Jesus was real, and that the Bible was true. All I did was to answer the question, using the Bible as refrence. My passionate beliefs came later, as I read the thread and felt that most of the people in the thread where discrediting my belief system.

I won't hinder anyones beliefs, I do however feel that this question was addressed at Christians and not Athiests. So ultimately, my passion came from spammers. I know I get worked up a bit, but it suprises me sometimes at the ignorance of people, and also at the degrading way in which Christianity is viewed. I mean, if people want to poke fum at me, do it because I am an American, haha, but don't dare call my belief system in question, and deride my God without expecting a small bit of passion to creep out. Let me put it this was, If I called your father names and slandered him, don't you believe that you would be a tiny bit angry. All I ask is for non believers to be a little more respectful in the manner that they use. So yeah, I guess I do let my beliefs rule me. But if I didn't then I honestly wouldn't be a true believer right?

Also, I know the response to this, is this, ....If you don't like it, stay away! But I disagree, I say, if you can't be civil, then don't enter into a discussion that you know nothing about.

[Cold Iron]

By the very nature of the fact that you are born again, you prove that your belief system can change.

[Bent]

I always believed, I just never accepted the belief whol heartedly, I was fortunate enough to have been brought up in a christian family, and enstiled with quality values, so no, my belief system didn't change, the extent in which I used that belief system changed, and as I grow and mature in that belief, so to will my use...i.e witnessing to non christians, (which I really struggle with) no more drinking, looking at porn etc. You see, I am not the perfect example of this rule, but I strive to be better every day, and I am proud of that fact.