[Dolorous Menhir]

TTT is just a handy abbreviation used on these boards. Many different phrases have been used in the books - Toblakai, Thelomen Toblakai, Tartheno - but not all three at once, giving TTT.

We use TTT because it's easy.

[Euron Crowseye]

Dolorous Menhir;210350 said:

TTT is just a handy abbreviation used on these boards. Many different phrases have been used in the books - Toblakai, Thelomen Toblakai, Tartheno - but not all three at once, giving TTT.

We use TTT because it's easy.

Ah, but Iron Bars was Crimson Guard, so from Quon Tali continent. The end of his quote in MT was hood damned Fenn.

When I think Leoman mentioned the Fenn to Karsa, he said even the Fenn remembered that they were Theloman Toblakai. So why would Iron Bars call them Tarentho T.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I'm not sure I understand your question, but the words

Tartheno
Toblakai
Thelomen

in any combination all seem to refer to the same species.

Fenn seems to be like Trell or Teblor, a closely related, but derivative species.

[polishgenius]

What?

We call them TTT. Regardless of what Iron Bars called them. I used the TTT abreviation there because it's the common collective description of all Toblakai tribes (which are just different names for the same thing so far as we know anyway). And even if they're different it's never specified what the Sereghal are.

[polishgenius]

Dolorous Menhir;210352 said:

I'm not sure I understand your question, but the words

Tartheno
Toblakai
Thelomen

in any combination all seem to refer to the same species.

Fenn seems to be like Trell or Teblor, a closely related, but derivative species.

The way I gather it, the first three are the names for the 'pure' thing - officially. The latter are the fallen versions - but what with Karsa, I'm not sure there's a difference apart from civilisationwise.
Either way, they're pretty interchangable. Karsa gets called Fenn by people who know them by that word, even though he's a Teblor.

[Euron Crowseye]

What I am guess I am saying is that it is mentioned several times in the series that the Malazan empire had dealings with the Fenn, who I assume are like the Teblor and Tatheno (not so much the Trell, or I didnt think the discriptions matched as much). So it stands to order that the Crimson Guard, who are from the continent of Quon Tali, would have had dealings with or at least known of the Fenn. So when Iron Bars entered the Azath yard and saw the Sarenghl, shouldn't he have said "Theloman Toblakai, hood Damned Fenn this won't be fun." Instead of Tarentho Toblakai, or is that just one of I am writing a complex series author slips.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Euron Crowseye;210356 said:

What I am guess I am saying is that it is mentioned several times in the series that the Malazan empire had dealings with the Fenn, who I assume are like the Teblor and Tatheno (not so much the Trell, or I didnt think the discriptions matched as much). So it stands to order that the Crimson Guard, who are from the continent of Quon Tali, would have had dealings with or at least known of the Fenn. So when Iron Bars entered the Azath yard and saw the Sarenghl, shouldn't he have said "Theloman Toblakai, hood Damned Fenn this won't be fun." Instead of Tarentho Toblakai, or is that just one of I am writing a complex series author slips.

Well, let's see. You make a big deal of the fact that the Crimson Guard originated on Quon Tali, which is true. But you neglect the fact that they have operations on other continents (Genebackis), and we know for a fact that Iron Bars has been to both Assail and Lether at the very least. Who knows what he has encountered in those places, or on others.

So is it hard to believe that he knows the word Tartheno and uses it instead of Thelomen? Not at all.

The Fenn have not been described. When Keeper first sees Karsa, in HoC, he asks if he is a Fenn, and then quickly realises his mistake. This suggests that although the Fenn may resemble the TTT, there are clear differences (Karsa is a Teblor, but it has been made clear that he is essentially an old-style full-blood TTT).

So yes, I would consider the Fenn alongside the Trell, as TTT-derivatives that bear a close but not exact resemblence to their forebears. Does anyone know where the Fenn homeland is, or if it has even been mentioned?

[Euron Crowseye]

Dolorous Menhir;210358 said:

Well, let's see. You make a big deal of the fact that the Crimson Guard originated on Quon Tali, which is true. But you neglect the fact that they have operations on other continents (Genebackis), and we know for a fact that Iron Bars has been to both Assail and Lether at the very least. Who knows what he has encountered in those places, or on others.

So is it hard to believe that he knows the word Tartheno and uses it instead of Thelomen? Not at all.

The Fenn have not been described. When Keeper first sees Karsa, in HoC, he asks if he is a Fenn, and then quickly realises his mistake. This suggests that although the Fenn may resemble the TTT, there are clear differences (Karsa is a Teblor, but it has been made clear that he is essentially an old-style full-blood TTT).

So yes, I would consider the Fenn alongside the Trell, as TTT-derivatives that bear a close but not exact resemblence to their forebears. Does anyone know where the Fenn homeland is, or if it has even been mentioned?

Doesn't Ubala say the Sarenghl were fallen purebloods un-worthy of worship, were Karsa is worthy of it. Then Hunch sends all the Tarentho spirts to Karsa to make the portal as well, half blood and pureblood.

And I could be wrong, but I didn't think Mappo's description matched greatly with Karsa's, and didn't Karsa call him squat in HoC.

[polishgenius]

Hmm. I didn't read Keeper's comment that way at all... I had it that he knew Karsa's not Fenn simply because he's got the power of an old TTT.

I've just always got the impression that Teblor and Fenn (as well as Tarthenal in Lether, but that's closer) are simply the names for the fallen TTT - Karsa gets a distinction because he's got the bearing and power that the species as a whole used to have.

"The Fenn had fallen far from their past glories, yet they remembered enough to know their old name...Thelomen Toblakai"

Endorsed by that line from Leoman, when you combine it with his (I think it was Leoman) comments that the Teblor have fallen even farther, but that they're also Thelomen Toblakai. Or something like that, don't have the book to hand.

[Euron Crowseye]

Dolorous Menhir;210358 said:

Well, let's see. You make a big deal of the fact that the Crimson Guard originated on Quon Tali, which is true. But you neglect the fact that they have operations on other continents (Genebackis), and we know for a fact that Iron Bars has been to both Assail and Lether at the very least. Who knows what he has encountered in those places, or on others.

So is it hard to believe that he knows the word Tartheno and uses it instead of Thelomen? Not at all.

The Fenn have not been described. When Keeper first sees Karsa, in HoC, he asks if he is a Fenn, and then quickly realises his mistake. This suggests that although the Fenn may resemble the TTT, there are clear differences (Karsa is a Teblor, but it has been made clear that he is essentially an old-style full-blood TTT).

So yes, I would consider the Fenn alongside the Trell, as TTT-derivatives that bear a close but not exact resemblence to their forebears. Does anyone know where the Fenn homeland is, or if it has even been mentioned?

As for the Crimson Guards actions on Genbackis. Karsa didn't know about the Malazans and he was captured around the fall of Pale, so that doesn't argue for any Crimson Guard meeting with the Telbor, they were all children to the Telbor.

And to clarify my Ubala Pung reference, he tells Tehol that a pureblood Tarenthal landed in Lether, then makes the worthy of worship comment.

[Mentalist]

Hmm.. as far as i Understood:
"Tartheno" refers to pure blood TTT, same as "Thelomen Toblakai"-all the original, unified species with a pretty advanced civilization

"Fenn" and "Teblor" refer to the fallen enclaves of TTT, that as far as we know are still pure-bloods, but degenerated culturally to a primitive, pastoral stage. In case of Teblor, the original pantheon was also usurped by the T'lann Imass spirits known as the Unbound. We don't have enough info on Fenn right now to clearly classify them (Maybe RotCG will tell us more?)

"Tarthenal"-Letherii term for mixed offsprings of humans and Tartheno"
"Trell"-a partially nomadic, partially sedentiary species that inhabit the plains west of Jhag Odhan in 7C. Im assuming that they are a separate species, although a possible evlutionary offshoot of TTT, because they inhabit the steppes and we never hear about their employment of Blood-oil or bloodswords (an old TTT habit, seeing as the Jhags of Jhag Odhan, who are a product of Jaghut/TTT interbreeding know of it when Karsa mentions it), being instead most reminiscent of the nomadic tribes of Central Asia/Mongolia (at one point Mappo mentions that they live in yurts). because of this i'd like to consider the Trell as separate category, although , of course they retain their connection to the TTT.
as for the Barghast (and, subsequently, the Moranth, who are the same specis biologically, but differ culturally, i currently don't recall enough bout their origins. one thing I do seem to remeber that they were those Imass that were too far away and didn't reach the gathering of the Ritual of Tellan in time....hence, they would be the direct descendants of the Imass (opening the intriguing possibility that humans evolved from the Barghast!!!). Im not quite sure how tdo TTTfit into this aside from Leoman's single quoten in HoC, compared to the loads of info on hte Barghast that we get from MoI

[Onrack the breakable]

I think Wu is tied to earth very closely and I suspect intentionally based on mythology. About 3000BC there was a somewhat common mideast religion related pretty closely to our modern religions.

According to this creation theory originally there was Adam and Eve who were one, perfect, and neither male nor female. Also there was Samael and Lilith who were the same. Supposedly Adam and Lilith were first married but something sordid happened and so Adam got both and Mael got nuetered. Samael was known as the angel of death and kills by poison- Poliel

What is interesting that in mythology Mael pretty much vanished but Lilith became queen of demons with wings and long read hair, the mother of Ahriman. Originally having dominion of the air, later became lady of night demons and mentioned as having stolen light and the fire of life. Also she was the mother of living creatures whose swarms filled the waters. Lilith was known as a matron.

Now to me the paralallels seem intentional or atleast closely related to whats going on in these books with all those insane gods.

Basically, Mael got his penis chopped off (the Sa) or his head chopped off, don't know which would be worse really. Anyway, Mael got the short end of the stick and hes pissed off. That seems to sum things up.

[Seed]

A babble of speculative theory ensues...

RG gives us a bit more confirmed history on the great dispersal of the remaining TTT race. When the Errant is scouting out Maels old altar to lay a trap for the sea god, his thoughts wander a bit and refer to the toblaki migrations and how the giants grew close to mael.

Before the Jaghut/Imass war caught fire at the time of the Ritual of Tellan the TTT were an old race in decline, living in great cities with high technology, the strength of their blood was fading with time and civilisation (presumably. we know the blood was getting weaker I think it was mentioned by the bhargest in MoI I wish I could find my copy, we can only speculate as to reasons. It could be some breeding flaw, maybe as a race they have a high incidence of genetic disease and have to breed quite carefully amongst the lines to stop throwing duds and maintain the pure characteristics). With the shifting of sea levels and great glaciers and ice sheets marching across the lands and reshaping the face of the world thanks to the jaghut imass wars they abandoned their cities and took to the seas in their great sword-prowed war canoes where they met and joined up with the imass who were travelling to the ritual gathering and didn't make it. They journied together for a time, presumably during the first few tumultuous years after the ritual, when the newly empowered T'lan Imass were kicking all the now easily accessible jaghut butts. Once the world settled down again they realised that there was relationships forming between the peoples, the hardliners saw their bloodlines falling further and at that stage the first great TTT split occured, Those amongst the TTT that had no qualms with their bloodlines joining with the Imass eventually turned into what would be the Bhargest, those that wished to remain pure split their ways and one group landed on lether and founded the mael temple the errant takes advantage of and later went on to become ublalas people. Another group landed in northern genabackis and became karsa's people. Presumably another group landed on quon tali and became bellurdans people. (hmm given the stature and weapons and armour of the demon possessed TTT corpse in the well in 7Cities, as well as the trell there's a good chance it was one of their original homelands preexodus, before they took to the seas, perhaps the trell decend from those that took their chances by staying on land and eventually buddied up with the jaghut for survival, maybe this is the union that begins gothos' relationship with some TT female that results in icarium).

Out of all of them only Karsa's people, who were instructed by Icarium after he rescued them (given he has a TTT mum he's be one of the people in the know regarding the proper care and maintenence of your TTT bloodlines) managed to keep any semblance of the pure TTT bloodline characteristics, and isolation helped that immensely. Not knowing how old Bellurdan was makes it difficult to determine how long it's been since the quon tali remnants have thrown up any pure blooded individuals up in the highlands, but I get the impression that their culture has been well and truly disbanded by now. I'm sure it was referenced in one of the earlier books, maybe DG or even HoC.

Kudd13 has given an awesome rundown on the remanent tribes that worded much less long winded than I ever could. Slot that information into the above appropriately.

-Seed ...should be taken daily with several grains of salt.

While I think about it, there was a second offshoot to Eres, the Tasse are the remanents of those Eres raised and civilised by the Deragoth in the 7Cities continent. Whereas the Nerek decend from those Eres on the Lether continent.

[Euron Crowseye]

I agree the telbor, fenn and tarenthal are all the same genus( for lack of a better word)

I kinda thought Karsa found out about the TTT blood in the Jhag in HoC, when he freed the Jaghut, but that was after his first meeting with Iccy. So he just kinda confirmed what he had been told in HoC in RG in the second meeting.

[Onrack the breakable]

But if the basic "race" of the telbor, fenn, and tarthenal (and Jhag, KCCM, Dragon, human and everything else) are shapechangers as we seem to see (the fish morphing into land dwelling forms, the underwater blobs morphing even as Bruthen Trana walked the sea bottom) then the question of race seems very pointless. It seems what the gods and elder gods do (or are supposed to do) is to create new forms of life and also to sing stars to life.

Several times characters walk to the rising sun. Or back in the Bonehunters.
"A smudge of light far to the south, like a cluster of dying stars on the horizon, marked the city of Kayhum.... celestial roads , the paths walked by the dragons of the deep, and Elder Gods and the blacksmiths with suns for eyes who hammered stars into life; and the worlds spinning around those stars were simply dross, cast-offs from the forges, pale and smudged, on which crawled creatures preening with conceit."

"Iskaral Pust. Now it was Apsalar who smiled , but she said nothing for Cotillion was gone.
The east horizon was in flames with the rising of the sun."

"Where did the darkness go?" Curdle demanded...
'The sun? By the Abyss, there's a sun in this world? Have they gone mad?"

But it seems Karsa and the Tlan Imass just want to kill everyone and then not have to have to pay a price for doing so. Unless of course they already paid but since no one else remembers anything then it seems pointless. The only thing Karsa and the Imass, and Jaghut, and KCCM seem to represent is a maelevolent force. Actually, the KCCM seem sort of innocent like ants or something but under the control for the matrons they could deliver incredible destruction. Such that the dragons feel compelled to wipe them out (their own children). Did the Toblacki instigate this or was it Gothos and the other Jaghut who tricked them into killing their own children. It seems awful sordid and vicious however it started. From what we see of Curdle and Telorast dragons do seem somewhat vicious but would not be a problem if not for the incredible power they possess (as dragons).

It seems the whole point is that too much power concentrated in any one place or people is a VERY BAD thing. The sort that leads to a BIG BANG!

[Mentalist]

Hmm.. Could you please give me a page reference to where it says that the dragons wiped out the KCCM? as far as i recall, they wiped themselves out 9and in Letheras, the Tiste did that). Also, the ones who instigated the demise of the KCCM were the matrons that recreated the older species of KCNR (short-tails) who refused to submit to the Matron's "communal will" the resulting civil war weakened KCCM enough so that the Tiste could wipe them out on Letheras, while their abuse of the Chaos magics caused their demise in Morn on Genabackis, with the last Matron being sacrificed to seal the Rent of chaos with her soul. we don't have enough info on what happened to KCCM on Quon Tali, Assail and Korel/Jacuruku (they never lived in 7C, b/c the Degaroth kept them out), but we can assume that their weakness allowed the elder Gods to reach the peak of their power, and the rise of Jaghut (Gothos was clearly very powerful around that time) added to their demise.

Also, the idea, of too much power is the embodiment of the T'lann Imass--the purpose of the ritual was to ensure the destruction of tyranny. which is why the Imass showed up during the ritual of the Beast in the First Empire--what was created there (among other things, the thorl' bara), would threaten the entire world, and the Imass were there to ensure that nothing will exist that can do that. Also that is why they joine d the fight agains Pannion Domin--to ensure that the KCCM do not return to dominance in the world, becuse "The tyranny of the jaghut Tyrants was nothing compared to the KCCM" I believe at some point in one of hte books, on of the Imass actually says that the world has changed and no single Tyrant can control it anymore)
The ones who want to kill everyone and everyting are the FA, but that's because they believe themselves to be bringing "peace" by doing that.
I really don't know where you got the idea that Karsa wants to destroy everything (well, all right the young Karsa maaaybe), but the new Karsa simply fights for what he believes to be just and is stubborn enough not to be defeated.
Few of the Jaghut can be considered malevolent--the tyrants. The rest want pretty much nothing to do with everyone else,and just happened to be victims of the Imass genocide.

Sorry for the long and somewhat chaotic post, i hope this clarifies things a bit.. It's hard to really speculate much, because Erikson only throws us bits and pieces of history (and i love trying to recreate the coherent history from it)

[Skywalker]

Onrack the breakable;210381 said:

< snip! > But it seems Karsa and the Tlan Imass just want to kill everyone and then not have to have to pay a price for doing so. Unless of course they already paid but since no one else remembers anything then it seems pointless. The only thing Karsa and the Imass, and Jaghut, and KCCM seem to represent is a maelevolent force. Actually, the KCCM seem sort of innocent like ants or something but under the control for the matrons they could deliver incredible destruction. Such that the dragons feel compelled to wipe them out (their own children). Did the Toblacki instigate this or was it Gothos and the other Jaghut who tricked them into killing their own children. It seems awful sordid and vicious however it started. From what we see of Curdle and Telorast dragons do seem somewhat vicious but would not be a problem if not for the incredible power they possess (as dragons).

It seems the whole point is that too much power concentrated in any one place or people is a VERY BAD thing. The sort that leads to a BIG BANG!

Say what? Lols.

Have been meaning to ask you for quite some time man, where do your radical rants come from?

Your posts are like a three way conversation between Optimus Prime, Jason Bourne, and... and... Cinderella. With Jar Jar Binks as interpreter.

And now my head hurts from trying to collect unrelated characters into a single sentence.

[Shurque's biatch]

polishgenius;210353 said:

What?

We call them TTT. Regardless of what Iron Bars called them. I used the TTT abreviation there because it's the common collective description of all Toblakai tribes (which are just different names for the same thing so far as we know anyway). And even if they're different it's never specified what the Sereghal are.

I am pretty sure that RG has a direct line where TTT are all chained together.

Someone says offhand "thelomen tarthenal toblakai of old" or something. Don't have the book (loaned it to the friend that got me hooked), but I remember distinctly reading it and going AHA!

[Clip]

For the purpose of my tree, the only change will be that I'm going to move the Trell out of the group of offshoot TTT species and make the connection between the TTT and the Barghast more concrete.

Basically the dif. names are just variations of the same species made by people all over the world. We mostly know the names that human empires knew them by, not by what they called themselves.

[Mentalist]

Im still not convinced about the Barghast/Moranth thing... imho, they should be in same box, since they seem to be same genus, just radically diff. culture. I mean, if we wanted to get really technical, we could design a Cultural evolution tree... lol
P.S: Somemebody, refresh my memory: do we get any mentioning of Jhags other then Icarium and the inhabitants of Jhag Odhan?