[Dolorous Menhir]

kud13;210506 said:

Im still not convinced about the Barghast/Moranth thing... imho, they should be in same box, since they seem to be same genus, just radically diff. culture. I mean, if we wanted to get really technical, we could design a Cultural evolution tree... lol
P.S: Somemebody, refresh my memory: do we get any mentioning of Jhags other then Icarium and the inhabitants of Jhag Odhan?

Dassem fought a Jhag during one of his campaigns as Malazan First Sword - it's now one of QB's souls, I believe. Set'alah Crool, something along those lines.

Can't think of any others.

[Clip]

We know too little about the Moranth to tell whether they are separate, except that they could have shared more than just technology with the Edur they were previously fighting, they could have also interbred, so we just don't know.

[Kurt Montandon]

Dolorous Menhir;210509 said:

Dassem fought a Jhag during one of his campaigns as Malazan First Sword - it's now one of QB's souls, I believe. Set'alah Crool, something along those lines.

Can't think of any others.

I'm pretty sure he was only half-Jhag, but that would seem to count.

[Aptorian]

kud13;210387 said:

Hmm.. Could you please give me a page reference to where it says that the dragons wiped out the KCCM?

It's Ruin that makes a reference to a KCCM vs Dragon event while the group is traveling through the ruined KCCM city. The Dragons got pissed when the KCCM made the Deathspell out of spite or desperation (The one that hunts MD).

This incidentally also seems to have played a part in the future KCCM cities being relocated to subsurface dvellings... well, that and big, fat skykeeps raining death from above.

On another note, to clarify, the TTT, Thelomen Tharthano Toblakai name is mentioned several times, here's one from GotM:

Quote

Thelomen Tartheno Toblakai . . .
find the names of a people
so reluctant to fade
into oblivion . . .
Their legend rots
my cynical cast and blights
my eyes with bright glory . . .
‘Cross not the loyal cage
embracing their unassailable heart . . .
. . . Cross not these stolid menhirs,
ever loyal to the earth.’
Thelomen Tartheno Toblakai . . .
Still standing, these towering pillars
mar the gelid scape
of my mind . . .
Gothos’ Folly (II.iv)
Gothos (b.?)
(GotM, UK Trade, p.69)

Thank you malazwiki

[Clip]

OK, I'll add Tartheno to the pure-blood group

[Clip]

Ok, need some input on an issue: what species bred with the TTT to make the Trell, if any?

Judging by the time that the TTT civilization was collapsing the most likely one is Imass, except that mappo recalls when his tribe fought a human kingdom, which must have been after the Ritual that made the T'lan Imass, and after the destruction of the human First Empire. We know that Mappo is old, but not how old, r when this war happened, So the Trell could have been a cross between TTT and humans.

[Skywalker]

Trell have leathery backs (I think there was a reference to this in DG when Mappo's wound festers) and huge canines... other than that, they have no distinguishing features (that I remember) from TTT. That may be wrong, of course...

The point I was making was, they could be a simple offshoot of TTT, who've undergone a kind of divergent evolution (the kind Darwin saw in finches on the Galapagos, or the perpetuation of marsupials in australia). Species don't necessarily have to cross-breed to branch and become different sub-species

[Clip]

That is possible, except you need a lot of isolation to make a new species out of an old one, without any interbreeding, and I don't think that the TTT who turned into the Trell had that, we know that they lived on a continent, not an island, so the chance of contact with other species and pure-blood TTT was a lot higher.

Bringing up the huge canines and leathery backs makes me think that they might have bit of Jaghut or Jhag blood in them.

[Skywalker]

clip;210666 said:

That is possible, except you need a lot of isolation to make a new species out of an old one, without any interbreeding, and I don't think that the TTT who turned into the Trell had that, we know that they lived on a continent, not an island, so the chance of contact with other species and pure-blood TTT was a lot higher.

Agreed... but from what I remember of the Trell war with humans, they were isolationists living in the middle of the desert... so really not that different from island conditions. The only hominid race they interacted with could be themselves. Then agian Ignore me... this is a nitpick.

clip;210666 said:

Bringing up the huge canines and leathery backs makes me think that they might have bit of Jaghut or Jhag blood in them.

Yeah... in fact I think in DG, his canines were described as bigger than Icariums

Quote

'Short and wide as a siege engine, his skin a deep, warm brown, his black hair braided and studded with fetishes. If anything, his canines were bigger than his companion's (Icarium), and looking much sharper. A Trell.' (DG, UK MMPB, p.302)

[Clip]

Since the most likely species that bred with TTT is Jaghut, then I'll put the Jaghut up with the rest of the species.

The only problem is that Iccy is a Jhag with a TTT mother, so, maybe when a Jaghut male breeds with a TTT female, you get a Jhag, and when a TTT male breeds with a Jaghut female you get a Trell.

[Onrack the breakable]

Arguing over the antiquity of various races when they may not even be in the same universe let alone on the same "time track" is another good pointless point. The EvolutionaryTree is a nice neat idea but the universe is rarely so neat and for wu Devolutionary Tree would be a more fitting name. But somepeople like differentiating between races or even species based on color or number of limbs, or whatever and call it science when it is just giving things meaningless names. Restating the obvious in such a way as to make it sound simple and neat.

To me it seems these Malazan books sort of subtly point out just how horrible things would be if gods really existed or if religious fanatics had the favor of real gods. Or even a tiny fraction of a modest suns (like our own sol) energy output. Igniting suns on the world's horizon because theyre so stupid they think the sun is tiny and circles the world (which of course is the center of the universe not just the solar system as every preacher well knows) and because the world is flat where else to put the sun.

The Tartheno or whatever they are called seem pretty much like the old Titans, giant gods that were vicious, spiteful, and stupid, but incredibly powerful. Like children with atomic weapons.

Does make a good story, but it just seems so many races are way over the top. They have godlike powers but no offsetting disadvantages, except perhaps their own stupidity and arrogance but it is everyone else who pays the price not them. Which is maybe where the Deragoth and Crippled god come into play, cutting everyone down to size or something.

[Mentalist]

Seriously, Onrack, im pretty sure the sun thingwas a metaphor... you're getting too worked up bout it
As for the races... well, here "race" actualy means "species", the word "Race" being commonly used, b/c it's in the glossary. So there's no reason that it doesn't work out "nice and neat", esp since SE is an anthropologist and knows his stuff.. As for the neatness of the universe... very few doubt the theory of evolution, suffice it to say

[Aptorian]

kud13;211592 said:

Seriously, Onrack, im pretty sure the sun thingwas a metaphor... you're getting too worked up bout it
As for the races... well, here "race" actualy means "species", the word "Race" being commonly used, b/c it's in the glossary. So there's no reason that it doesn't work out "nice and neat", esp since SE is an anthropologist and knows his stuff.. As for the neatness of the universe... very few doubt the theory of evolution, suffice it to say

Don't worry Onrack is as usual flying down some weird avenue of logic only he can see. Don't try and go there, it's a wild, crazy place.

To quote Apocalypse now, If you go down the river you can never return... the horror, the horror.

[Clip]

@ Onrack, The Evolutionary tree of Wu is an exercise in anthropology, not philosophy, I have no interest in drawing comparisons to our own world, not do I have any interest in including Gods, etc. in this tree.

This is a scientific endeavor, not spiritual, or anything else.

[Clip]

OK, got a new version up, this one has the Tiste in with the rest and their connection with (possibly) the Moranth, and the connection with the Shake.

Any thoughts?

[Mentalist]

looks real good, Clip. one small thing about he shake: do they have anything to do with KCCM? i believe that was mentioned in RG...

[Onrack the breakable]

clip;211723 said:

@ Onrack, The Evolutionary tree of Wu is an exercise in anthropology, not philosophy, I have no interest in drawing comparisons to our own world, not do I have any interest in including Gods, etc. in this tree.

This is a scientific endeavor, not spiritual, or anything else.

Maybe, I'm a hard scientists myself (physics and mechanical engineering) but enjoy poking fun at religon and soft sciences such as anthropology not to mention philosophy.

Whether intentional or not there is what seems to be religious cultural jokes/puns.

For example Shurq Elalle saying, "The Tiste Edur couldn't administer their way through a mooring tithe." Recall that Masan Galini is always showing her tits and Shurq then commenting that the nipples look like figs. Also, correct me if im wrong but isn't one of the biggest gripes of Islam vs Christianity that "moors" (pardon if you take that as insult) resent, do not accept the "addition" of Priests, preachers, ministers interceding for them. Sort of a math pun as well. I maybe wrong here but I took Shurqs comment to be a slight jab at the absurdities of both religion/culturatual obscessions.

Anyway, I found that comment hilarious perhaps more than anything else because it almost seems accidental.

[Aptorian]

Onrack the breakable;212468 said:

Maybe, I'm a hard scientists myself (physics and mechanical engineering) but enjoy poking fun at religon and soft sciences such as anthropology not to mention philosophy.

Whether intentional or not there is what seems to be religious cultural jokes/puns.

For example Shurq Elalle saying, "The Tiste Edur couldn't administer their way through a mooring tithe." Recall that Masan Galini is always showing her tits and Shurq then commenting that the nipples look like figs. Also, correct me if im wrong but isn't one of the biggest gripes of Islam vs Christianity that "moors" (pardon if you take that as insult) resent, do not accept the "addition" of Priests, preachers, ministers interceding for them. Sort of a math pun as well. I maybe wrong here but I took Shurqs comment to be a slight jab at the absurdities of both religion/culturatual obscessions.

Onrack seriously, look at what you're writting, look at what the thread is about... what the hell are you on about?

Do you ever stop and reread and quantify what's the gist of a discussion?

You're totally incomprehensible, it's like discussing something with the oracle of delphi.

[Locke Reaper]

If I remeber correctly, it was mentioned near the end of BH that the KCCM were the first children of the elient, Thus the children of chaos.

As for the trell, Mappo was refered to as being squat so maybe a mix between barghast and jughut. Now this might be barking up the wrong tree but what if the trell are bastard offspring of the jughut tyrants who had a bit of anibble on there imass slave. I know i'm relating human nature to another species but it's just a suggestion.

[Onrack the breakable]

Aptorian;212471 said:

Onrack seriously, look at what you're writting, look at what the thread is about... what the hell are you on about?

Do you ever stop and reread and quantify what's the gist of a discussion?

You're totally incomprehensible, it's like discussing something with the oracle of delphi.

I'm just contrary and nonconformist by nature. So automatically if someone makes a thread titled, "Evolutionary ..." I feel compelled to mock those who are religiously scientific as well as those who are scientifically religious as well as those who are just anal retentive.

And I don't apologize to the anal retentive even if they are god(s) or think they are. My greatest regret is that Bugg, Tehol, and Iskaral Pust are only imaginary people (like Wu is an imaginary place if you recall). Most real people are far more boring and conformist. Also while on the nature of nonconformism, have you ever wondered if there was a hell for gods, and angels and demons (as well as humans) and for every judgement they made against man they must be punished by an eternity of mockery from us pathetic mortals. Just a another random thought somewhat tied to the mockers creed.

On the subject of Evolutionary trees and such, has anyone else noticed that all our world leaders have faces that look suspiciously like monkeys?

Hee, hee. I hope no one is taking my words seriously, I don't want to accidentally initiate doomsday or anything so catastrophic. Just havin fun.