[cerveza_fiesta]

I wonder if there's any basis for thinking the CG used to be the god of chaos and entropy, and that all the badarse gods and ascendants in the malazan world pulled him down to keep him from destroying them all.

Also, if the jade statues (allegedly) contain the CG's worshippers, then the otataral in the ground near the statue crash site (the place with the finger where heboric got his fancy hands) could be a physical manifestation of the entropy power in the statue from its contacting the earth.

Could also be why the jade magic had to battle the otataral, trying to fight its way into something ordered from something chaotic and entropic.

[Aptorian]

Get thee into the Crazy theories thread!

[cerveza_fiesta]

sry if I'm in the wrong place. Moderator, move me over if you wish.

Other than telling me what I'm doing wrong, does anybody have a view on this?

[Clip]

I don't think that the CG is a God of the world that the books are set in, he is considered a "foreign" God, and the Otataral is what is created to hold the CG foreign magic from destroying the world. It could be the worlds "immune system" to hold foreign objects and magics in place.

It could be that he has turned into a God of entropy since he arrived, but Chaos is probably an entity unto itself, it doesn't need a God, because having a God of something is created an order, a ruler, a hierarchy, organization, which is the opposite of chaos.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I don't think the CG's original aspect is in effect any more. He lost it in the Fall, and was remade anew. So it's not important to the current story, and we might never be told what it was.

[Abyss]

There are two strong hints that this is not the case (or at least was not the case pre Fall):

1. Heboric's dreams suggest the souls in the jade chunks were from many different worlds, not just one;

2. when Silchas shares the vision of the Fall, chunks of what i presume were one of the CG's temples fall to the ground, and this includes plenty of phallic statues and sexual imagery. Not exactly entropic.

Of course, both of these points are extrapolation and as DM mentioned, things have changed.

- Abyss, notes that fundamentally, it all comes back to the phallus... oh, was that out loud?

[cerveza_fiesta]

clip;209132 said:

because having a God of something is created an order, a ruler, a hierarchy, organization, which is the opposite of chaos.

Yep...good point. Introduces one of those fun paradoxes. A ruler of chaos???

I wonder if the whole concept of chaos was introduced at the time of CG's fall though. As in there was perfect balance at one point in the history of malazia (name I made up for malazan earth). If he's a foreign god and his aspect were chaos (or what is now viewed as chaotic by the denizens of malazan earth) then the fall might have introduced chaos to the malazan earth in the first place by simultanously introducing a new aspect and nigh-killing the conscience that previously controlled it.

That could help explain why CG is kind of a sore in Burn's tummy now. His power (the foreign body) was introduced and now its headless, running amok and devouring everything like a burn-flesh-eating bacteria or something, except CG can still bend it to his will somewhat.

[Crop]

Damn!
I do not have the faintes idea as to what entropy is :S

[Mr.Warren]

chrissloe;209169 said:

Damn!
I do not have the faintes idea as to what entropy is :S

the destruction of everything so things can start a new. something along those lines

[Dolorous Menhir]

Mr.Warren;209202 said:

the destruction of everything so things can start a new. something along those lines

The physics student in me is crying right now.

[Mr.Warren]

Dolorous Menhir;209205 said:

The physics student in me is crying right now.

I'm a philosophy student, nuff said

if i'm wrong i'd like to know though.

[Gem Windcaster]

What if it's simpler? If he's an alien god, maybe that means he's a god of aliens?
Like god-of-everything-that-is-cast-out-in-space or something similar. Chaos=space. Maybe there's even more of those chaos gods out there. Any stable world is the natural opposite of chaos. Which means there could be a chaos version/position or any god residing in the 'stable' parts of the universe.
Maybe Heboric is related to any of those chaos gods - just not the CG. ---Because why would the chaos universe be less aware than the stable universe?
---Or maybe the chaos part is on it's way to become something else.

Okay, now I am just rambling...

[Mentalist]

Hmmm, well in MoI, parts of which i've re-read today, there are numerous references to "the warren of Chaos"... (which is, of course a paradox in itself, as a warren is a manifestation of imposition of order), and, more importantly, Drakonus informs Paran, that (paraphrasing): "Chaos has always been at war with order/Darkness, and mother dark kept retreating with every step of creation: the separation of Light, the Birth of Shadow...."
So, no chaos can't just be the fault of the CG, because Tiste were around long before human Kallor ever evolved from the Eres'al....... However, since he (CG) was chained inside that warren, it is likely that he eventually learned to use its power, taking the aspect of chaos....
As to entropy and otataral, there's still the matter of a gigantic ottaral dragon that remains to be covered (and Erikson in one of the interviews promised to talk a lot more bout that)

[cerveza_fiesta]

Mr.Warren;209202 said:

the destruction of everything so things can start a new. something along those lines

Entropy can mean a few things, but basically its a measure of disorder in a system. In a non-entropic system, you'd have all of the energy being perfectly recycled and everything in balance. For example in a non-entropic human body, you'd never need energy input (food) or waste output (poop) and all body heat would be recovered by perfectly insulating skin and reused.

In reality of course, there's always some un-recoverable loss, such as heat generated by your body or friction in a car engine. It usually amounts to some form of energy (heat) being radiated away from the system in such a way that it can't be recovered. Entropy is also the reason that a beer bottle smashed on the road can't suddenly reassemble itself and leap back in to a drunk's hand.

When I talk about entropy here, I am speaking of chaos, which is the ultimate disorder. In SE's books it fights ordered things such as the bodies of the Edur mages and tries to twist them into something less ordered. My idea was that CG's aspect might have invaded the malazan world after his fall and become chaotic since its god (and controlling conscience) was torn away suddenly.

Ok..long winded, but that's the basic idea.

[Skywalker]

kud13;209221 said:

Hmmm, well in MoI, parts of which i've re-read today, there are numerous references to "the warren of Chaos"... (which is, of course a paradox in itself, as a warren is a manifestation of imposition of order)

Actually, if you re-read GOTM, there is a sequence where QB follows Hairlock into the warren of Chaos and thinks something along the lines of 'the warren of chaos is the primordial 'outside' beyond all warrens'.. so in some sense it is not structured or ordered - it comprises all the unstructured/ disorderly parts left over from K'rul's organization...

On an aside, SE has been consistent about this too. While most warrens have gates, thrones, and such, chaos is personified (one of many personifications) by a wave chasing the gate to Kurald Galain inside Dragnipur...

edit: to correct reference

[Abyss]

sky_walker;209300 said:

Actually, if you re-read MOI, there is a sequence where QB follows Hairlock into the warren of Chaos and thinks something along the lines of 'the warren of chaos is the primordial 'outside' beyond all warrens'.. so in some sense it is not structured or ordered - it comprises all the unstructured/ disorderly parts left over from K'rul's organization...

On an aside, SE has been consistent about this too. While most warrens have gates, thrones, and such, chaos is personified (one of many personifications) by a wave chasing the gate to Kurald Galain inside Dragnipur...

The QB scene was in GotM, not MoI. I find it interesting that that meeting took place at something called 'the Spar of Andii'. Could be a GotMism, but i wonder whether at some point there was a Tiste Andii incursion into Chaos. In theory, the Andii and their MD/KG origins are the antithesis the an aspect of Chaos.

- Abyss, the antithesis of an aspect of sober night before last

[Skywalker]

Abyss;209304 said:

The QB scene was in GotM

My bad... fixed

[cerveza_fiesta]

Abyss;209304 said:

I find it interesting that that meeting took place at something called 'the Spar of Andii'. Could be a GotMism, but i wonder whether at some point there was a Tiste Andii incursion into Chaos. In theory, the Andii and their MD/KG origins are the antithesis the an aspect of Chaos.

so if the andii made a possible incursion into chaos, could that have been where Rake goes in as a rep. for KG to pull the CG down from his realm?

Just trying to tie in what you're saying with my CG-the-god-of-chaos-and-entropy thing

[Aptorian]

Oh come on people the CG is an "alien god" not the god of chaos or some shit.

He is from a whole other place, removed from Wu and every realm in contact with Wu. He's from the place beyond the universe, he's a god like the one we see in MOI that has taken up the abandoned realm of Fener.

He's foreign, different, not of this world. The CG (ignoring his lies) himself says in RG that he was once a different god, kind and good, he was the opposite of what he is now. Beauty and vitality lost to be replaced with malice and cruelty.

He's insane, not chaos aspected.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Aptorian;209608 said:

Oh come on people the CG is an "alien god" not the god of chaos or some shit.

He is from a whole other place, removed from Wu and every realm in contact with Wu. He's from the place beyond the universe, he's a god like the one we see in MOI that has taken up the abandoned realm of Fener.

He's foreign, different, not of this world. The CG (ignoring his lies) himself says in RG that he was once a different god, kind and good, he was the opposite of what he is now. Beauty and vitality lost to be replaced with malice and cruelty.

He's insane, not chaos aspected.

you missed my earlier idea about how his aspect *became* chaotic

In my earlier line of thinking:

His aspect was introduced when Rake et. al pulled him in and chained him to Burn's flesh. With its governing conscience so abruptly removed, his aspect (now ungoverned) became chaotic and unpredictable and "filled in the cracks" between the other warrens, and assaulted their orderly construction. There's no mention that I remember of chaos being associated with the elder holds in SE's numerous dealings and descriptions of the tiles (correct me please if I'm wrong there), so maybe there was no chaos aspect before the CG's fall. By the time the warrens were introduced, the CG's warren corrupted itself so badly that it became completely chaotic.

Just trying to make a half-plausible theory for the CG's origins. Its fantasy...crazy stuff happens sometimes ya know.