[ANOMAGNUS]

I know some people have been disappointed with the how the Crippled God is playing out as a major villain. I have been thinking a little, and I’m beginning to wonder of the Crippled God will even turn out to be the major threat of the series at all.

This is a little bit of supposition here, but it is mentioned that that the Sorcerers on Jackaru went looking for another god, and found a curious one. A curious one, that was also involved in a war with another entity. (If I remember correctly). Now, in my mind, a God doesn’t get curious during a war, unless he’s not doing so well, and he’s on the hunt for something to give him and edge. Unfortunately, it doesn’t go well, and he's dragged from his realm, ripped asunder, and bound to the earth of a foreign planet. Who was he fighting? And what has happened in his absence.

I’m wondering if this other party is anything to do with the KCCM and KCNR. The KCCM seem to be aspected to Chaos, from what I remember. Could these be the enemy the CG was fighting?

Honestly, I don’t believe that Crippled God will be the final enemy here. He’s a victim as much as anyone else. He was ripped to pieces and chained several times to a realm not his own. I know some people will say the final book is called the Crippled God, but that doesn’t mean he’s automatically the final villain. Rather, I think the last book will be about him, his story, and how his choices affect the world.

I could be wrong. I mean, all his plans could have just been feints, designed to attract attention, but to be blunt, his pawns are falling quickly. I just don’t think he has the chops to be a master villain. I actually feel kind of sorry for him.

When the bad news comes, I think we’ll see a real master villain, something related to the Jade Giants, Otatarl, the Dragons and KCCM. And I think the s**t is going to hit the fan in book 8, and all the wars we have seen so far have just been warm up’s.

[drinksinbars]

yeah, he does seem fairly underpowered to be the main villian.

my guess :- quick ben is the big bad;)

[Falco]

drinksinbars;196876 said:

yeah, he does seem fairly underpowered to be the main villian.

my guess :- quick ben is the big bad;)

Pssht, clearly its WJ and he faked his death in a clever ruse. :eek:

[Flawed]

Its probably something to do with the Jade Giants. Someone will come. Absorb all those trapped souls and lay waste.

[Bottle]

Of course he's the real villain in the series.

One of the main points of Steven Erikson's fantasy novels is: they do not play out like normal fantasy novels.
That's what makes them so enjoyable.

If the Crippled God was really the big uber-villain that some of you seem to want, then the series would have just boiled down to another 'Good vs Evil' showdown. Something SE wants to stay clear of.

Moral ambiguity, no right or wrong. And more so characters act in both right and wrong ways. This is key to SE's writing, and so obviously we're not going to see someone pointlessly evil.

We're meant to feel sorry for the Crippled God, he is a victim just as much. And most importantly he is just as flawed as any of us. I really like the Crippled God's character, and think he's actually one of the series' strong points.

Even the closest things we have had to 'dark lords' have both turned out to be victims. the Pannion seer and Rhulad. And so I really wouldn't expect some perfectly evil and all powerful villain to come out of nowhere. In fact, I think that would ruin the whole series for me if it happened.

This isn't to say the Crippled God is useless, or not formidable in the least. Other members hit the nail on the head, I think, in the other CG thread by saying: The crippled God thrives on flaws, for him a weakness is a virtue, something to be exploited.
I think when all his empires have toppled it was his intention, he thrives in others' failures.

The idea is a bit hard to comprehend, but if SE can pull it off, it will be breath-taking, and really set the series apart from most other fantasy novels.

[Battalion]

Yeah, what Bottle said.
Could not agree more.

[Gem Windcaster]

I think Bottle is correct too.
There is not 'one' villain, but many. Or rather, there's isn't any character that is completely evil or completely good. It's all gray scale, or color. Or whatever you wanna call it.

[Cause]

The cripple god seems to be filing but his effect on others is only growing. I got the impresion that the war of gods that is so often mentioned is not going to be evryone against the cg. But more complex. The gods of the holds (see the errant) sem to want to war against the warren gods and become ascendant again. so while he himself is not kicking ass te destruction his plans are causing is enormous

[Alorion DarkenBlade]

I feel the SE writes in the non herioc fantasy ..where evil is only the perception of the other side and I like it.

I can see CG's side pulled down from his celestral abode ripped to shreds then as an anthema to the world he was pulled into chained, i'd be a bit miffed as well.
I personaly think that if some uber villian emerged saying HA i was pulling all these strings to my own ends to sow chaos and discord so you wouldnt notice my dastardly plan to own the world , i'd be rather upset.

Alorion

[Agraba]

While Erikson expresses his disdain for generic fantasy stuff, he does quite a bit of it himself. There are characters who you would view as completely good, and wouldn't ever disagree with their notions. Fiddler and Trull, for instance; I don't think either character ever did something in the series that we'd view as less than heroic (if so, then it's a very small instance), and then say 'gah, I dislike this character, and hope he loses/dies'. Nor have characters like Kallor, Bidithal, Anaster (the original), Hairlock, Mallick Rel, or others ever elicit our sympathy. The only reason people would have sympathy for the Crippled God was because of his story; it's not like he's shown us any sign of something endearing to a reader. And let me mention that a villain who is bent on causing suffering only only in spite of his own suffering is very much a generic villainy motivation. It is, in fact, just revenge.

And in almost every book (excepting GotM and maybe MT) there is one faction that is inherently the 'good guy' faction, and the other which is those we hope would lose. Even though they did have some PoVs of main characters we love (the best example is the many loved characters in Sha'ik's camp in HoC like Heboric, Karsa, etc.), that faction is still the one with an inherently 'bad' intent.

Many times things aren't grey, and it is very clear which characters we like, and which ones we don't.

[xhentil]

ANOMAGNUS;196875 said:

I’m wondering if this other party is anything to do with the KCCM and KCNR. The KCCM seem to be aspected to Chaos, from what I remember. Could these be the enemy the CG was fighting?

They aren't aspected to Chaos. The Matron over in Morn tried to harnass Chaos, but failed. They have their own gig that we haven't found out about. However, those guys are pretty prolific and powerful as well, so I wouldn't be surprised if there is some connection.

Erikson has said that the Otataral Dragon would be seen again. If dragons are aspected (two for each) to a warren, then... an Otataral warren? At any rate, I reckon we'll find out about Otataral. Additionally, I don't think that Jade Statue storm in BH was just a non sequitor. I figure all of these things will play into the story--especially in regard to the CG.

[Mael]

ANOMAGNUS;196875 said:

This is a little bit of supposition here, but it is mentioned that that the Sorcerers on Jackaru went looking for another god, and found a curious one. A curious one, that was also involved in a war with another entity. (If I remember correctly). Now, in my mind, a God doesn’t get curious during a war, unless he’s not doing so well, and he’s on the hunt for something to give him and edge. Unfortunately, it doesn’t go well, and he's dragged from his realm, ripped asunder, and bound to the earth of a foreign planet. Who was he fighting? And what has happened in his absence.

I’m wondering if this other party is anything to do with the KCCM and KCNR. The KCCM seem to be aspected to Chaos, from what I remember. Could these be the enemy the CG was fighting?

First thing, the sorcerors that pulled down the CG were on Korelri, not Jakuruku. They pulled him down trying to obtain power to defend against Kallor and his empire on Jakuruku.

Now there is an interesting point...let me elaborate on it.

I'm totally with you on the CG was looking for an edge in whatever war it was that he was fighting during the time of the Human First Empire when he was brought down.

Stuff i have stated before in the Forums:

Now in GotM Apsalar (Sorry) makes a comment at the end that says something along the lines of "we will all live on the moon in the gardens, lovingly tended by the god Grallin"

In MT Udinass makes a comment about the moon to someone that states "can you see the abandonded overgrown gardens."

new info:

Now there is this wicked awesome theory that i have just recently stolen from Abyss and TB (since it is so unbelievably awesome I must have thought of it) that i have claimed as my own.

It states that at some point the KCNR left the Malaz world and went to the moon. When the moon was "attacked" by the Jade Giants in BH the KCNR fled the moon in thier skykeeps into the imperial warren which they would have access too since it is most likely that the KCNR homeland was Jakuruku (based on the enormous amount of high technology Kallor and his people discovered there)

So, it might be highly possible that the KCNR fled the Malaz world after they rebelled against the KCCM on morn. The KCCM matron being trapped in the Chaos rent would have givin the KCNR the edge required to defeat the remaining KCCM (or was possibly the final event that encouraged thier rebellion). After winning thier freedom the KCNR then left to escape both the jaghut and Tiste races (or perhaps the Elient) that would have inevitably wiped them out. Upon arriving on the moon it is possible that the KCNR ended up at war with the local inhabitants/Gods that could have lasted a very long time.

Could it be that the CG was a caring benevolent god that was initially looking out for the good of his people and is now lashing out at the world that first invaded his own and then forced him to abandon his own people and tore him to pieces in the process? We always look at the CG as someone lashing out at the PERSONAL "injustices" that he has endured, but what if it is much more then that.

How would you feel if your neighbor dragged your out of your house kicking and screaming while your family was being butchered by his cousins that he threw out of his house, so that you could save his family from them instead? Would you be more angry about the bruising he caused you or would you not even notice as you raged at the dying screams of your loved ones which you are no longer close enough to hear?

As it was stated earlier, there is no real "good" vs "evil" in this series where even the worst of villians are often the product evil actions and more often then not fall into the position of Villian by accident rather then by thier own design

[Bottle]

But there's no oxygen on the moon... or food.

[Danyah]

There's three moons. Clearly moon is just used as "sattelite". Who's to tell what's on Wu moons. Besides, there's no magic and warrens on the earth either.

[Agraba]

I held a theory once that the Crippled God was this 'Grallin' that Apsalar spoke of.

But I don't think that the myth she spoke of is real; just something to add emotional effect to the characters, especially when the moon is referenced. That's not to say that it was never inhabited. Abyss' (not Mael's) theory that the KCNR lived there, and quickly went to the Imperial Warren for refuge is credible. But then, it doesn't explain why an abandoned skykeep on Wu, that held Ganath's frozen Edur-executed dragon, is suddenly becoming re-populated. If the KNR knew there were abandoned but working skykeeps on Wu, wouldn't they have come after them a long time ago? Wouldn't they have long ago attacked Anomander Rake for his sky keep? I have the feeling that in TtH, we're going to see the tombstone of the BBs suddenly lift off, and if the Andii try to contest it, devices that Rake never knew how to use will suddenly be used against him.

Quote

Could it be that the CG was a caring benevolent god that was initially looking out for the good of his people and is now lashing out at the world that first invaded his own and then forced him to abandon his own people and tore him to pieces in the process? We always look at the CG as someone lashing out at the PERSONAL "injustices" that he has endured, but what if it is much more then that.

He does say to Janall that his power 'was once the sweetest kiss'.

[Mael]

Agraba;197056 said:

I held a theory once that the Crippled God was this 'Grallin' that Apsalar spoke of.

But I don't think that the myth she spoke of is real; just something to add emotional effect to the characters, especially when the moon is referenced. That's not to say that it was never inhabited. Abyss' (not Mael's) theory that the KCNR lived there, and quickly went to the Imperial Warren for refuge is credible. But then, it doesn't explain why an abandoned skykeep on Wu, that held Ganath's frozen Edur-executed dragon, is suddenly becoming re-populated. If the KNR knew there were abandoned but working skykeeps on Wu, wouldn't they have come after them a long time ago? Wouldn't they have long ago attacked Anomander Rake for his sky keep? I have the feeling that in TtH, we're going to see the tombstone of the BBs suddenly lift off, and if the Andii try to contest it, devices that Rake never knew how to use will suddenly be used against him.

Nonesense, All those wonderful theories that are thought up by other people are just using my brain by PROXY!!!

They never had a reason to leave the moon before recently. Perhaps they succeeded in wiping out the CGs people on the moon after he was removed and thier population has exceeded what thier existing skykeeps are capable of comfortably carrying. Maybe now they have returned using the same skykeeps they initially left in hundreds of thousands of years before and are back and reclaiming thier even older skykeeps that were overwealmed by Omtose Phellak and the Jaghut rebellion.

And what about Udinass' comment regarding the Abandonded overgrown gardens on the moon?

-BRAIIIINNNNNSSSSS!!!!

[Agraba]

But then, you're saying there is a major time period where they and the CG are living on the moon at the same time. The KNR, according to your theory, migrated to the moon around the time that the Andii wiped out the KCM (just before the MT prologue), which was long before even the Imass prospered. Yet the CG only landed 100k years before current events, which makes almost a million years between when KNR disappeared and the CG landed. No struggle between two factions, or even two races last that long.

[Mael]

Agraba;197068 said:

But then, you're saying there is a major time period where they and the CG are living on the moon at the same time. The KNR, according to your theory, migrated to the moon around the time that the Andii wiped out the KCM (just before the MT prologue), which was long before even the Imass prospered. Yet the CG only landed 100k years before current events, which makes almost a million years between when KNR disappeared and the CG landed. No struggle between two factions, or even two races last that long.

The CG was brought down about 100,000 years before the present time on Wu. I believe the first human empire and the MT prologue are only about two hundred thousand years or so apart. So saying it happened over a million years is a bit off. If the conflict began as soon as the KCNR landed then it would have raged for 200k years tops before the CG was pulled down. But who is to say it began immediatly? It is possible that the KCNR landed and colonized an uninhabited section and then ran into conflict several thousand years down the road.

Also, according to the timeline the KCNR rebellion on Morn would have occured about the same time as the Imass were enacting thier ritual of Tellan since it pretty much coincided with the events following the Tiste invasion (the scattering of the Edur), not "long before even the Imass prospered".

As for long struggles....The T'lan Imass would like a word with you

[Agraba]

Where does it say 'not long before the imass prospered'? I thought it was very long before the Imass prospered. Also, even then, starting the beginning of the Imass prosper, up until the ritual was a very long time, since there were over 30 Jhagut wars since then. The ritual itself happened precisely 200k years before the CG's landing, and as I understand, the KNR left extremely long before that, some short time before the MT prologue. Also, as I understood it, the KNR and KCM were at war long before the Tiste arrived.

So the time between the KNR's disappearance and the CG's landing was the 200k years between the ritual and the landing, plus the time between the KNR's disappearance and the ritual, which I think is a very long time, not the same time as you said.

[Mael]

Agraba;197078 said:

Where does it say 'not long before the imass prospered'? I thought it was very long before the Imass prospered. Also, even then, starting the beginning of the Imass prosper, up until the ritual was a very long time, since there were over 30 Jhagut wars since then. The ritual itself happened precisely 200k years before the CG's landing, and as I understand, the KNR left extremely long before that, some short time before the MT prologue. Also, as I understood it, the KNR and KCM were at war long before the Tiste arrived.

So the time between the KNR's disappearance and the CG's landing was the 200k years between the ritual and the landing, plus the time between the KNR's disappearance and the ritual, which I think is a very long time, not the same time as you said.

You're confusing two different time periods for the KCNR.

The time period for the KCNR you are speaking about is the first one. These KCNR were most likely wiped out by thier Jaghut slaves (genetically engineered creations?) with all thier skykeeps overwealmed with OP. During this time period there are no Imass. The only species we know about at this time are the Elient, the KCNR, the KCCM (maybe a slave race aswell), the Jaghut, the Eres (maybe) and most likely the Deregoth. After this time period I am assuming that they KCNR are completely wiped out. These KCNR didn't go anywhere, after all why would you have to resurrect a species that still exists and you could possibly summon via your super powerful magic.

The time period for the KCNR I am speaking about is much later when the KCNR species are resurrected by the remaining enclaves of KCCM (perhaps using KCNR robotic tummy bugs or something) who force them to share thier power with the matrons. The KCNR don't like being slaves or the power sharing idea too much and rebel forcing the KCCM matron on morn to try and harness chaos, trapping herself in the rent. This leaves the remaining KCCM on morn disorganized and essentially helpless compared to the KCNR who wipe them out then leave in thier fancy skykeeps. This rebellion occurs shortly (generally speaking) after the tiste invasion but before the Ritual of Tellan (say within 100 years or so).