[Lisheo]

KCNR technology or KCCM magic is the view that most ppl hold on this, I think. Im not sure myself, we dont know enough yet to decide really.

[dolfanuk]

so he got the KCCM / KCNR to help him?

always thought he'd gone wacko and killed everyone lol and where the hell are the KCCM from????

spawn of dragons so Starvald demelain or whatever???

hmmm must contemplate

[Flawed]

Well it is thought that he used the Kccm machinery to lay waste tot eh continent. There are hints here and there about how he had his scholars working at working out all the machinery and ruins left. He obviously found a weapon or some such and pressed the button.

The whole reason he is left to roam around and do as he pleases is because the curse makes him always fail. So he can do anything, cant try to do anything as it just doesn't matter because he will fail. In his eternal never ending failure he is always going to loose.

I bet he was well miffed about it all

[Lisheo]

No, he found relics or some such. On his continent, the KCCM/KCNR were long dead, and he had scientists examining their ruins/ machinery.
I reckon some Eleint, who were cut off from SD, slowly evolved into KCCM, after quite a while, and had to adapt their magic and bodies to Wu.

[dolfanuk]

true true. but why do they use the imperial warren to travel around? wasn't that kallors old realm???

[Lisheo]

Yeah. Its possibly cus its emptyish. They dont want to be seen. And also, my theory about their magic is that its the warren of sound, which is mentioned as one of those lost elementals by Cotillion. So maybe theyve just jumped on a warren that holds residual traces of their power, if the theory bout Kallor hijacking their WMDs is true.

[dolfanuk]

do you happen to know the other lost warrens by any chance?

[Lisheo]

No, theres only the vague mentions given by Cotillion that talk about them, but thankfully he directly refers to sound, and then in MT it explains they use sound(or gravity, as some ppl suggest. Im still holding to sound tho).

[Seed]

Yes, but Jacaruku was also the seat of one of the shorttail enclaves. When Kallor first took the continent he remarked that there were many ruins in great pits around the land and he had his philosphers study them and the language. In hindsight the pits could be the left overs of shorttail cities that were wrenched from the ground and turned into skykeeps. Given my impression was that K'rul engulfed the entire ruined continent that Kallor's empire encompassed, the fact that any land remains in modern times to be labelled the continent Jacaruku is interesting.

Another interesting thing is the fact that the imperial warren is expanding, by DG it's large enough to allow travel to the 7 cities from malaz. Presumably the warren was originally contient sized when K'rul engulfed it in ages past. Has the fact that the malazan empire has claimed it as their own in some way allowed it to grow, or has it slowly been growing the whole time. Do warrens get larger as they age? Do they start out like the imperial warren and end up like KG?

Anyway, I digress. What I was aiming at was the shortails have a previous claim as it were. the fact of the ruins existance may give them a homing beacon of sorts from wherever they're starting out (moon?whereever),the warren then allowing a convenient haven for regouping and safe travel? Kallor was the late owner and the previous tenants are returning.

[Lisheo]

The Imperial Warren was made with the intent that it would allow Jacaruku to heal, so perhaps its growing as it heals? After all, a continent load worth of ash wouldnt take up as much space as solid land.

[Aptorian]

The imperial warren was probably originally a place were a specific "nation" or clan of the KCCM originated from that's why the Moons relocated there in BH.

The imperial warren isn't so much a lost world as it is a continent chucked into the garbage by an eldergod. (By the way imagine the power K'rull had back then) It's not growing but like so many other warrens it has potholes that just dump out into other places not specifically over jacuruku or 7C.

It could be that it wanders like Hood's realm, but it seemed like you could go a lot of places from there, seeing as Apt seemed to jump easily in and out of there and shadow. Kallam only needed to focus to find his destination.

[dolfanuk]

ok i'm confused guys, i'm sure someone said earlier that jackuru or whatever it called is the same place as the Imperial Warren. is that right?

now someone is sayin different my head is gonna blow guys i swear

[Seed]

In days gone past the emperor Kallor ruled over the continet of Jacuruku. It what seemed unprecedented for the period he conquered the entire continent in record time. At the height of his power, the neighbouring large civilisation on the continent of Korelri started getting nervous and wondering if Kallor was going to come spilling over their borders in the near future. They got their high mages together and called on a foreign god, and dragged him unwilling into Wu. Firey was his descent, and he smote the continent of Korelri in his fall. At this time three of the elder gods took a stand, seeing the future threat of Kallor they resolved to remove him before he grew more irksome. In a fit or pique or spite, Kallor destroyed his own empire, burning it into ashes and bones using re-discovered K'Chain N'hruk technology that had lain fallow across Jacuruku before this time.

He cursed the three gods when they confronted him for his acts, and they cursed him in return. K'rul, one of the three then decided that the continent of Jacaruku was too devastated, too wounded to recover as it was, a blight on the face of the young realm. So he engulfed it within himself, removed the greater portion of ashy wasteland from the face of Wu and set it adrift within his currents to heal over time.

Time passes, and in later ages the Malazan empire finds this barren land unclaimed and drifting in chaos, empty of all peoples, and claim it as their own.

Given that it's still pretty much desolate and wasted in modern times, I posit that K'ruls claim of allowing it to heal over time was so much hot air.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Seed;204460 said:

In days gone past the emperor Kallor ruled over the continet of Jacuruku. It what seemed unprecedented for the period he conquered the entire continent in record time. At the height of his power, the neighbouring large civilisation on the continent of Korelri started getting nervous and wondering if Kallor was going to come spilling over their borders in the near future. They got their high mages together and called on a foreign god, and dragged him unwilling into Wu. Firey was his descent, and he smote the continent of Korelri in his fall. At this time three of the elder gods took a stand, seeing the future threat of Kallor they resolved to remove him before he grew more irksome. In a fit or pique or spite, Kallor destroyed his own empire, burning it into ashes and bones using re-discovered K'Chain N'hruk technology that had lain fallow across Jacuruku before this time.

He cursed the three gods when they confronted him for his acts, and they cursed him in return. K'rul, one of the three then decided that the continent of Jacaruku was too devastated, too wounded to recover as it was, a blight on the face of the young realm. So he engulfed it within himself, removed the greater portion of ashy wasteland from the face of Wu and set it adrift within his currents to heal over time.

Time passes, and in later ages the Malazan empire finds this barren land unclaimed and drifting in chaos, empty of all peoples, and claim it as their own.

Given that it's still pretty much desolate and wasted in modern times, I posit that K'ruls claim of allowing it to heal over time was so much hot air.

Close, I think. K'rul took the devastated surface of Jacuruku and made it into the Imperial Warren. The "base" of Jacuruku remained on the planet. Put it this way - K'rul cleansed the continent. It didn't go anywhere. He wiped the slate clean, to start again. Those surface layers, the ash, bones, human & KCCM ruins we've frequently seen, became the basis of the Imperial Warren.

There has been a reference to the current human population of Jacuruku (drawing a blank on where that reference occurred), so the continent is definitely capable of supporting life in modern times.

Also, the Imperial Warren is not empty. The Malazans don't control it, they are just one user among many. There are demons there, at least. Paran notes this when he travels through it in GotM with Topper. When Lostara Yil and Pearl travelled it, they found the remains of armies that had fought there. And of course the skykeeps appeared there in BH, without explanation.

There is a further cloud over the identity of the Imperial Warren - in BH it was described as the dead racial warren of the KCCM (known as Kaschan by the Edur in MT). I don't see how we're supposed to reconcile that piece of information with the MoI account of the Imperial Warren's origin, but no doubt it will come.

[Midnight]

with regards to the KCCM connection...

Kallor's empire was built amidst the ruins of the KCCM and if those ruins were pulled into the imperial warren by K'rul it would make sense that the KCCM would have some claim over the warren.

[Aptorian]

Dolorous Menhir;204489 said:

Also, the Imperial Warren is not empty. The Malazans don't control it, they are just one user among many. There are demons there, at least. Paran notes this when he travels through it in GotM with Topper. When Lostara Yil and Pearl travelled it, they found the remains of armies that had fought there. And of course the skykeeps appeared there in BH, without explanation.

I think we're supposed to think the creatures living in the Imperial Warren are creatures brought there from Wu that lived on Jacu before the destruction. Creatures like Togg and Fancypants that are too powerfull to die but unable to do anything about the misserable existence they live in.

Remember Topper didn't think it was a good thing to run into one of them. Not just the common badger then.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Aptorian;204587 said:

I think we're supposed to think the creatures living in the Imperial Warren are creatures brought there from Wu that lived on Jacu before the destruction. Creatures like Togg and Fancypants that are too powerfull to die but unable to do anything about the misserable existence they live in.

Remember Topper didn't think it was a good thing to run into one of them. Not just the common badger then.

Kallor killed everything on the surface of his continent. So what creatures would there be?

Togg and Fanderay in the Imperial Warren? Where did that come from? Togg was trapped in Chaos, and Fanderay wandered the mundane world.

[Aptorian]

Creatures like Togg and fanderay.

I don't know if Togg, who we see for the first time in the prologue of MoI, was already an ascendant before the CG fall, probably was. I'm pretty sure Togg and fanderays kind lived on Jacuruku before the fall. If he in fact was of a Imass type wolf race it could have survived on Jacuruku as an isolated off-shoot from the undead ones.

But I ment powerfull or magical creatures, like a KCCM or a feral mutantcow or something. Or creatures in hidding, say standing behind a 30 foot wall when the a-bombs started dropping or beings living under ground, not affected by the wall of fire, etc.

[Lisheo]

Perhaps thos Elder Gods not taken out by the Fall, even. Degraded and mindless and wrapped in pain, I dont think anyone would want to meet any whole, but still tormented CGs.

[BridgeBurner]

Seed;204460 said:

He cursed the three gods when they confronted him for his acts, and they cursed him in return.

Minor nitpick: the Three cursed Kallor first, and in response he cursed them as well. For the rest, good summary.

I have a crazy theory that after Draconus gets out of Rake's sword, Kallor's curse will be lifted somehow, because the three curses he dealt out will have been nullified. K'rul and Nightchill already got past their curses...

Ascended Kallor will be badass then...

(and probably die in a Celebrity Deathmatch against Karsa)