[Falco]

*Shrugs* All relative innit. We've consistently high-powered characters in SE's books, the movers and shakers, the elite. He's not there in combat terms.

And that 'thrown dagger' was chaotically aspected, taking Korlat by attacking her warren.

[xhentil]

Agraba;196968 said:

Icarium was known for laying waste to cities, but... an entire realm?

Shattered Warren anyone? Didn't Icarium go ape crazy and lay waste to the Azath and warren trying to free his dad?

Kallor obviously has power when he cursed the three Elders. He's got a whole mess of knowledge, remember his dissertation on the KCCM. He was smart enough to employ the use of KCCM technology. He's got brains. He's got SOME sword skill, but he definitely has superiors. Nonetheless, he may be arrogant and stupid, but I wouldn't count him out...

[Agraba]

xhentil;197018 said:

Shattered Warren anyone? Didn't Icarium go ape crazy and lay waste to the Azath and warren trying to free his dad?

Kallor obviously has power when he cursed the three Elders. He's got a whole mess of knowledge, remember his dissertation on the KCCM. He was smart enough to employ the use of KCCM technology. He's got brains. He's got SOME sword skill, but he definitely has superiors. Nonetheless, he may be arrogant and stupid, but I wouldn't count him out...

From what I understand, Icarium was one of many factors that led to KE's sundering.

[xhentil]

Agraba;197026 said:

From what I understand, Icarium was one of many factors that led to KE's sundering.

Agreed. As things go along, it seems that KE was screwed from the beginning. I don't think the mantle can be placed on his shoulders, but in Deadhouse there is talk of his... contribution...

[mmdw45]

Agraba;196968 said:

Karsa... not so much. We saw him take many Edur at once, but we also saw how crappy the Edur were against malazan heavies like Koryk. When he ran into about 20 humans in HoC he was taken down and chained. I realize he is much stronger since then, but it shouldn't take more than a couple of Malazan squads with cunning tactics to take down the brute.

I agree. The vignette about the two Kenryll'ah princes should be enough to convince us that numbers do count, especially when munitions are involved. The demon princes totally outclassed Trull and Rhulad and took down a Forkrul Assail, which sounds approximately Karsa-class, but they got shredded pretty bad by their first encounter with Fiddler's squad and then may or may not have survived the trap.

Karsa's real advantage, aside from his attitude, is his brains, so he might have a decent chance of taking a few squads of Malazan marines, but if he tried a frontal assault he'd wind up like the demon princes.

-Max

[Danyah]

But remember Coral. If you have enough big bad nasties, then munitions alone don't work. You need other nasties, like T'lan Imass.

[mmdw45]

Mael;197008 said:

He takes out Korlat (the most dangerous person there except for maybe tayschrenn) with a thrown dagger.

Is that it? I could never work out what happened to Korlat, and I always sort of figured he whacked her in the head with a sword and maybe cut away part of her skull. Anyone have a quote handy?

-Max

[Mael]

xhentil;197018 said:

Shattered Warren anyone? Didn't Icarium go ape crazy and lay waste to the Azath and warren trying to free his dad?

There are some hints as to what went down but nothing super concrete yet.

My Assumed Events:

He killed the Azath he assumed had imprisoned his father Gothos. Turns out Gothos was living in the azath (maybe with Scabbies finnest) and Icarium lost his temper for nuthing. The death of the Azath then released the fragments of the already once sundered realm of KE that it was holding together, fragmenting the realm once again and shattering his mind in the process.

Based on the events with Ruin and Kettle in the Refugeeum in RG, i would think that using an Azath house (by Rake and Killmandaros) to Anchor all the fragments of KE together after its initial sundering by Scabby would be the best way to fix a sundered realm.

Quote

Is that it? I could never work out what happened to Korlat, and I always sort of figured he whacked her in the head with a sword and maybe cut away part of her skull. Anyone have a quote handy?

Ya she took a dagger to the frontal lobe.

[Morgoth]

People seem to forgett what Kallor was, and to an extent still is. He is not Anomander Rake or Caladan Brood. He is not of an ancient race or an ascendant. Kallor is a brilliant tactician and a strong warrior who conquered a whole continent, and possibly parts of at least one more.

Of course he cannot stand up against Rake, Tays or Korlat or others of that power, martial prowess is not what makes Kallor a figure to be reckoned with. I'd rather compare him to Alexander the great or Julius Caesar.

[Battalion]

As always in my defence of Kallor, I refer to the words in the MoI prologue.

... another empire had emerged. Brutal, a devourer of souls, its ruler was a warrior without equal.

This from K'rul's viewpoint, so, perhaps, in K'rul's view, Kallor was a better warrior than Draconus? I don't know, but he must have been handy with a sword.

[Richard]

Kallor has to be given some credit since he's spent a goodly part of his time in the presence of ascendants, which he is not. He's still mortal and with that in mind he is without peer.

He's a great swordsmen a masterful tactician and capable if uncharismatic general. Though he lacks any personal magical aptitude he knows a lot about scorcery and magic. Presumably he's also able to use power even if he can't directly summon it. (His cursing of the three eldar gods springs to mind.)

Lastly he has that rare ability in any character of knowing exactly when, where and against whom he can pick his fights. It's not about who's the greatest swordsmen when talking about Kallor against others. Kallor wouldn't go for a fair fight unless he was sure he'd win. (One of the reasons he fought Whiskeyjack I thought was down to not considering him a real threat.)

Kallor is still a contemptuous wretch. As anyone who's conceit demands anything they have is theirs to do with as they will, even to destroy it. So he remains a marvelous villian. I hope he returns to the books.

(As a little side note. One those nice little details about Kallor is that he still possesses his throne. Without even a people or any kingdom anymore his ego will not let go of what he once had. A nice little dig at his own pathetic hubris.)

[xhentil]

Mael;197058 said:

There are some hints as to what went down but nothing super concrete yet.

My Assumed Events:

He killed the Azath he assumed had imprisoned his father Gothos. Turns out Gothos was living in the azath (maybe with Scabbies finnest) and Icarium lost his temper for nuthing. The death of the Azath then released the fragments of the already once sundered realm of KE that it was holding together, fragmenting the realm once again and shattering his mind in the process.

Based on the events with Ruin and Kettle in the Refugeeum in RG, i would think that using an Azath house (by Rake and Killmandaros) to Anchor all the fragments of KE together after its initial sundering by Scabby would be the best way to fix a sundered realm.

I know i'm off track a bit here, so i'll keep this brief. The impression I got from the prologue to RG was that Rake and Kilmandaros and perhaps the FA themselves DID cleanse KE and bring things back--back in the same way that one would glue back together a broken vase. From that, it made me think that perhaps Icarium broke that vase once again, this time scattering the pieces.

Of course, I have no idea as to timelines here.

[Agraba]

Ano and Killy outwardly resigned that they couldn't possibly save KE anymore, but that they might as well clear up any faction that's fighting over the fragments. It's probably thanks to them that Kellanved and Dancer could just walk into an open boat.

[Skywalker]

hmm... made me think... would be fun to have a Karsa vs Kallor match up... given Karsa's penchant for taking out the Crippled God's champs, it isn't that far out of left field.

Edit: Especially if Karsa shows up in TTH on Genabackis

[Agraba]

I hope not; he's had too many books as of late, which is against SE's nature. He needs to sit out for a bit.

It's especially too radical if SE does three continents in three books, and the same one character just happens to be on all 3 of them.

[Illuyankas]

Considering that Karsa went through the CG's portal to Genabackis, it's very likely he'll be in the next book. Which would be unexpected.

[Morgoth]

it also seems like people forget the three curses placed upon Kallor. He is no longer what he was.

[BridgeBurner]

Morgoth;197558 said:

it also seems like people forget the three curses placed upon Kallor. He is no longer what he was.

IIRC, Kallor got only 1 curse, placed upon him by 3 Elder Gods: K'rul, Nightchill and Draconus. He replied by giving each of those a curse for themselves.

Considering that 2 of the 3 countercurses have been undone now, and that we sort of expect Draconus to get out of his own sword at some point, I take it that the curse laid on Kallor might be undone as soon as that last thing happens.

He would be able to Ascend and/or Die then.


Apart from that, Kallor should be considered among the tactical elite, based on his skill as an empire builder and his longlife experience alone.

[Agraba]

Illuyankas;197552 said:

Considering that Karsa went through the CG's portal to Genabackis, it's very likely he'll be in the next book. Which would be unexpected.

I thought he just went through the portal Withal came out of.

[Illuyankas]

No, that was the one the CG specifically said led to Genabackis. It's just he doesn't have Havoc with him.