[Agraba]

I think he has access to the power of a Matron - either he has control of one, like the Pannion Seer did, or he posesses that power himself.

He is intimately familiar with the surface of his old empire, which is currently the Imperial Warren. Kallor stated in MoI that the Matrons used a sort of sorcerous ritual to revive a whole society of KNR, and that they could use their devices, but then used them against the KCM in war. Now they are revived again, and using their devices, meaning that a matron or her power is behind this.

Also, Silchas Ruin stated that every time the KNR got an edge in their war, a matron would use some sort of extremely destructive attack to turn the tables back around. This sounds like the sort of thing that put an end to Kallor's empire.

Also, we know that Kallor, as is the wont of a tyrant, deems himself a force to reckon with, and something that can put opposers to their knees. He states in MoI that a matron has sorcery to 'dwarf that of an elder god'; something that, if he holds the power of a matron, is his characteristic sort of boasting.

I think we will learn in TtH that Kallor is responsible for the sudden rise of KNR in his old empire.

[Mael]

Agraba;196677 said:

I think he has access to the power of a Matron - either he has control of one, like the Pannion Seer did, or he posesses that power himself.

He is intimately familiar with the surface of his old empire, which is currently the Imperial Warren. Kallor stated in MoI that the Matrons used a sort of sorcerous ritual to revive a whole society of KNR, and that they could use their devices, but then used them against the KCM in war. Now they are revived again, and using their devices, meaning that a matron or her power is behind this.

Also, Silchas Ruin stated that every time the KNR got an edge in their war, a matron would use some sort of extremely destructive attack to turn the tables back around. This sounds like the sort of thing that put an end to Kallor's empire.

Also, we know that Kallor, as is the wont of a tyrant, deems himself a force to reckon with, and something that can put opposers to their knees. He states in MoI that a matron has sorcery to 'dwarf that of an elder god'; something that, if he holds the power of a matron, is his characteristic sort of boasting.

I think we will learn in TtH that Kallor is responsible for the sudden rise of KNR in his old empire.

The KCNR rebelled against thier KCCM masters on the land of Morn in Southern Genebakis shortly after the tiste invasion (events in RG and MT prologues), long before the creation of humanity and its subsequent empires (Dessembelakis' first empire and Kallor's subsequent empire). This occured on a completely different continent (Genebakis) then the one Kallor's empire was on (Jacuruku).

What we do not know is what happened to the KCNR afterwards (most likely left in thier leet skykeeps and are now returning). We know that the KCCM Matron attempted to obtain even more power (to fight the KCNR or to otherwise prevent thier extinction) by harnessing Chaos and failed, trapping herself in the rent and setting the stage for Kilava Onas and the events in the Prologue of MoI. This doomed the remaining KCCM on Morn to extinction since they no longer had thier hive's queen.

What Kallor found on the continent of Jakuruku were the remenants of extinct KCCM/KCNR technology (from the time before the KCCM decimation by the Jaghut when they ruled the whole world except 7 cities) which he then used to destroy his own empire before the Elder Gods (K'rul, Draconus and Nightchill) showed up to "Liberate" it.

An interesting side note:

In my reread i came across the part where Ruin and Company are travelling through the KCNR/KCCM city near the beginning. It is indicated that the Skykeeps were actually ground based cities that were sheered away with ritual magic in order to take to the sky for defensive/offensive purposes. When Saren asks something to the effect of why arent there flying cities everywhere? Ruin replies that the majority of them were inundated (overwhelmed) by Omtose Phellak.

Combine this with the short chapter preface regarding the KCCM adding insulation to thier city (still ground based ruins below a human city being investigated by an archeologist) before it was abandonded and with the fact that Rake and his Andii found Moon's Spawn frozen in a glacier we can get a pretty good idea as to why the KCCM began to die out before the Tiste invasion and a possible reason for thier resurrection of the KCNR.

[Falco]

Also with the whole the Jaghut-were-to-KC-what-the-Imass-were-to-Jaghut thing...

[Abyss]

We're turning a Kallor thread into a KC/KN thread here, but i'd also note the suggestion from TB, more pure theory than anything else, that the Kn were hanging out on the moon and had to evac their cities to the Imperial Warren when the jade chunks started impacting.

- Abyss, could say they blew chunks. Sort of. Ok, not really, but it's still funny. Really. Oh shut up.

[Aptorian]

Back to Kallor, on a more logical note. If Agraba was right about Kallor obtaining the power of a KCCM Matron none of his actions in MoI, hell none of his actions during the last 100 millenia, would make any sense.

The power of the matrons was world scouring, nuclear holocaust end of the world if I want it type power. No way would the arrogant, selfobssesed tyrant we all love just diddle about in the company of Rake and Brood if he had that type of power... He certainly wouldn't need help from the CG.

More to the point, if he'd had that type of power a couple of Elder gods wouldn't had been permitted onto his land in the first place.

He might have sorcery up his sleeve, the way an unadept can learn to throw magic around through a hundred thousand years of research and practice, but his skills lie in tactics and ancient knowledge... and a flair for alchemy.

[Bottle]

I'm not sure why everyone's treating Kallor seriously. I thought SE introduced him as another of his 'cliché' bashes against the genre, failing that just introduced him for some mild comedy.

Look through MoI, he's introduced as an evil and somewhat insane tyrant in the prologue but by the time he is introduced into the book proper he has become the butt of all jokes.

None of the characters take him seriously, Brood and Rake most of all, who constantly belittle him, and dismiss his threats to kill Silverfox, basically telling him he's an idiot.

Quickben puts him inside a hole.

WhiskeyJack completely outclasses him in a sword fight, and would have defeated Kallor (who must have a hundred thousand years of martial training) if it wasn't for his bad leg.

Come on lets face it. The guy is an idiot, a funny one. And as far as I can see, has less wits then Ubala.

He’s not a military genius, he’s not a suprememly skilled fighter. If he can’t get out of a hole quickly, he can’t be that good at magic (or climbing). He’s just a very naughty boy.

[Flawed]

The power Kallor used to destroy his empire was KCCM based. But from a device only. As a few people have rightly said Kallor isn't the type of chap to mince about with world destroying power without flexing a little civilisation crushing left right and centre.

Even if he had a Matrons well spring of power within a Finnest he wouldn't be able to access it as he isn't a mage.

He would probably just wear it as an attractive bauble on a necklace. Just so he could. Just so.

I think he pressed a button and destroyed his empire out of spite because he could because the elders were on there way. It was directionless power so he couldn't use it against the Elders to beggar them so he did what he could.

Its an interesting theory Agraba but im with Mael, Abyss, Apt and Bottle on this.

[Bottle]

Just a quick thought. If it was some sort of nuclear explosion, or any sort of bomb, then where was Kallor when he set it off?

[Flawed]

Epicentre. The eye of the storm perhaps

[Battalion]

Kallor is underestermated.
He did kill Whiskeyjack.
He did curse the elder gods.
He did destroy an entire continent.
I don't think he is the laughing stock of the series, far from it. He gets a bad press, which I understand because he's a bit of a tit, but I think he'll be vastly important in the books to come.

[Talamadas]

Bottle;196894 said:

I'm not sure why everyone's treating Kallor seriously. I thought SE introduced him as another of his 'cliché' bashes against the genre, failing that just introduced him for some mild comedy.

Look through MoI, he's introduced as an evil and somewhat insane tyrant in the prologue but by the time he is introduced into the book proper he has become the butt of all jokes.

None of the characters take him seriously, Brood and Rake most of all, who constantly belittle him, and dismiss his threats to kill Silverfox, basically telling him he's an idiot.

Quickben puts him inside a hole.

WhiskeyJack completely outclasses him in a sword fight, and would have defeated Kallor (who must have a hundred thousand years of martial training) if it wasn't for his bad leg.

Come on lets face it. The guy is an idiot, a funny one. And as far as I can see, has less wits then Ubala.

He’s not a military genius, he’s not a suprememly skilled fighter. If he can’t get out of a hole quickly, he can’t be that good at magic (or climbing). He’s just a very naughty boy.

I think you are wrong about Kallor. He faced some of the "elite" characters of this Storyline.
We haven't had alot of fighting where Whiskeyjack was involved but it was said at the end of MoI that Whiskeyjack spared with Dassem. Even for Dassem it took some time to get through Whiskeyjacks defenses.
Quick Ben was even back then a mage who didn't have many equals in the World.
Then we have Rake and Brood. Do I have to say more?

[Gem Windcaster]

Kallor did seem bad-ass at the time he was introduced. Then we got to know characters like Icarium and Karsa - compared to them Kallor is not even close, destruction wise. Those two could easily destroy not only a realm by themselves, but several realms in one stroke. Probably. And other characters, like the Errant, is way beyond Kallor in pure viciousness.

In comparison to some characters, Kallor is simply a walk in the park. 'Nuff said.

[Agraba]

Gem Windcaster;196942 said:

Kallor did seem bad-ass at the time he was introduced. Then we got to know characters like Icarium and Karsa - compared to them Kallor is not even close, destruction wise. Those two could easily destroy not only a realm by themselves, but several realms in one stroke. Probably. And other characters, like the Errant, is way beyond Kallor in pure viciousness.

In comparison to some characters, Kallor is simply a walk in the park. 'Nuff said.

I'm not so sure on your comments of Icarium, Karsa, and the Errant. Icarium was known for laying waste to cities, but... an entire realm? I don't think he's ever been known for that. I think if he ever goes in a rage in the wrong city, like Black Coral, or a Moranth City, he would eventually be taken down (after trying efforts from the whole city). Karsa... not so much. We saw him take many Edur at once, but we also saw how crappy the Edur were against malazan heavies like Koryk. When he ran into about 20 humans in HoC he was taken down and chained. I realize he is much stronger since then, but it shouldn't take more than a couple of Malazan squads with cunning tactics to take down the brute. As for the Errant... well, I'll give him that he's quite powerful, enough to trap Mael, but I wouldn't say he's anything 'uber' at this point, and not quite at the level of guys like Anomander Rake, or others.

As for Kallor; you forget how he is described at the moment of betrayal. His speed was unreal, it was said. WJ only tried to interfere to help the twins against Kallor, but I think he may have been able to take down WJ in a 1v1 if WJ wasn't injured. And how could he have laid waste to an entire continent without a scratch? Surely you can't do that with technology...

[Abyss]

Plus, Kallor led Brood's forces effectively against the Malazans on Genabackis multiple times. And he did build that Empire thing, back in the day. He's an effective military leader, along with everything else.

- Abyss, wouldn't mind seeing Kallor end up as dragon poo.

[Falco]

Umm there's several levels to Kallor. As a swordsman he's probably not that good, and he doesn't have the raw ascendant magic mojo thang (due to his curse one presumes)...several parts in MoI show this, upto and including where Brood outright tells him he is too cowardly to take on the likes of himself, Rake et al.

He has knowledge of the past, but the cursing the three Elder Gods thing was almost like a ritual...a price they had to accept to take Jacuruku. Doesn't seem like the sharpest tool in the shed either to be honest. Open to manipulation.

[Gem Windcaster]

I will stick to my assessment, it's how I see this issue.

That Karsa and Icarium hasn't actually laid waste to several realms, doens't mean they couldn't. Besides I have a feeling that Kallor is taking more credit for some things than he has the right to. He is that kind of guy. And no, don't ask me why I think so, I can't explain coherently.

Kallor is certainly a capable leader, a fine swordsman, and he has ambition. He is intelligent for sure, but I say he has to thank his ambition for far more than he has his intelligence.
And as somewhat stated in the books before, wit beats strength any day. Well, whatever that means.

[Mael]

Falco;196978 said:

Umm there's several levels to Kallor. As a swordsman he's probably not that good, and he doesn't have the raw ascendant magic mojo thang (due to his curse one presumes)...several parts in MoI show this, upto and including where Brood outright tells him he is too cowardly to take on the likes of himself, Rake et al.

He has knowledge of the past, but the cursing the three Elder Gods thing was almost like a ritual...a price they had to accept to take Jacuruku. Doesn't seem like the sharpest tool in the shed either to be honest. Open to manipulation.

Kallor is a phenominal swordsman and an increadible tactician. He has a hundred thousand years of experience to draw upon and lead Brood's armies against the malazan's successfully for years. WJ was an amazing swordsman aswell but got beaten because of his leg. People seem to forget how well Kallor played everyone at the end of MoI. As for his lack of sorcery...Tayschrenn sure had a hell of a time dealing with it at the end of the book. Kallor may not have his own sorcerous powers but it seems as though he now has the CGs power to throw around.

Kallor = 1
WJ, Korlat, Tayschrenn, The Twins and Silverfox = 0

I would hardly refer to Kallor as stupid, weak or anything even closely resembling it.

Quote

And how could he have laid waste to an entire continent without a scratch? Surely you can't do that with technology...

Perhaps the device was meant to protect the user. Either way this has pretty much been established based on Kallor's own long winded comments and descriptions of the devices found on Jakuruku by his people and the enormous amount of time he had them spend on researching them etc.

Abyss;196775 said:

We're turning a Kallor thread into a KC/KN thread here, but i'd also note the suggestion from TB, more pure theory than anything else, that the Kn were hanging out on the moon and had to evac their cities to the Imperial Warren when the jade chunks started impacting.

I love this theory so much that I CLAIM IT FOR MY OWN!!! Seriously, this makes a great deal of sense.

[Falco]

Mael;196998 said:

Kallor is a phenominal swordsman and an increadible tactician. He has a hundred thousand years of experience to draw upon and lead Brood's armies against the malazan's successfully for years. WJ was an amazing swordsman aswell but got beaten because of his leg. People seem to forget how well Kallor played everyone at the end of MoI. As for his lack of sorcery...Tayschrenn sure had a hell of a time dealing with it at the end of the book. Kallor may not have his own sorcerous powers but it seems as though he now has the CGs power to throw around.

Kallor = 1
WJ, Korlat, Tayschrenn, The Twins and Silverfox = 0

From my memories of that scene in MoI, his and CG's ambush uses chaos to take out the magic users ala Silverfox, Tayschrenn and Korlat. In open combat, anyone of them could probably have flattened him. The twins, two 'ordinary' Malazan marines are overwhelmed fair enough, but from it seems like had WJ not been injured, that fight was heading at least for a draw if not a WJ win. So, no I refute the implication that Kallor is powerful compared to other in combat.

As for his tactics and subjugation of Jacuruku, there is more evidence to support that and I'm not disputing it.

[Onos]

As an example if Kallor had been in charge of Lether, (even without any sword) things would have been much different. Kallor would have ruled lether with an Iron fist, where Rhulad let everything fly out of control. Kallor isnt perfect and is want to do silly things out of spite, but over all i imagine he is a pretty competant manager of things and probably knows how to manage underlings via fear and greed.

I am hoping Kallor has been put to good use... setting up an empire somewhere and consolidating a power base. (and it better be good... ) Perhaps Kallor has become Ruler of the Teblor?

[Mael]

Falco;196999 said:

From my memories of that scene in MoI, his and CG's ambush uses chaos to take out the magic users ala Silverfox, Tayschrenn and Korlat. In open combat, anyone of them could probably have flattened him. The twins, two 'ordinary' Malazan marines are overwhelmed fair enough, but from it seems like had WJ not been injured, that fight was heading at least for a draw if not a WJ win. So, no I refute the implication that Kallor is powerful compared to other in combat.

As for his tactics and subjugation of Jacuruku, there is more evidence to support that and I'm not disputing it.

He takes out Korlat (the most dangerous person there except for maybe tayschrenn) with a thrown dagger.

WJ would have won the duel had he not been injured but that doesn't change the fact that Kallor is a fantastic swordsman. After all WJ was one of the best and being beaten by the best doesn't exactly make you "bad", especially if you say that it may have even been a draw which i doubt.

He took on the twins 2 on 1 and came out laughing except for a nice dagger wound that one of them sacrificed herself to give him. The guy is no slouch with a sword. Sure he's not up to Rake or Dassem's level of prowess but hes still very good.