[Optimus Prime]

Hmmm...interesting.

I've always found the idea of being "Saved" especially odd...the idea that you can have a bed repentance seems like a cop out...

And the idea of modern day prophet...I've heard that before...

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Obdigore;249935 said:

@ the person who said 'christians don't believe mormons are christians', are you slow? Thats like saying Jehovah's Witnessess are not christians, because you havn't looked into their religion at all, and regurgitating what your church (or ex-church) leaders have told you.

Just because it's illogical doesn't mean it isn't true. There are, in fact, many christians who do not consider mormons christian, due to their different take on several key ideas of christianity. For hundreds of years catholics refused to admit that ANYONE else was also christian, why is it difficult to believe this mindset still exists?

Note: I'm not agreeing or defending these people, just affirming that they exist. They do, I've met them.

[paladin]

could be a spinoff of mormons not being protestants, since the origin of their belief isn't the same that created the protestant churches

[Dolorous Menhir]

James Hetfield;250231 said:

I'm a LDS. a.k.a. Mormon Any questions? Ask me. Been a member for 21 years and proud of it.

What do you think of Mitt Romney?

[James Hetfield]

Romney was in charge of the 2002 Olympics in Salt Lake City. It so happens that one of the events was near my house. A traffic problem arose and he went apeshit on some of the volunteers, even though it was not their fault. Seems like a nice enough guy on the tube, but that turned me off to him. Volunteers do not get paid, He's an ass.

Not to mention he seems a litlle wishy-washy.

Good publicity for the Mormons though.

[Optimus Prime]

Romney is a snake.

But not to get off topic, I don't see the Mormon faith as any stranger than the other Christian sects. Or stranger than Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

[Cold Iron]

Except for the fact that they claim they have an almost identical yet independently written copy of the same text discovered more than 15 centuries after the first...?

[Optimus Prime]

I'm just saying from my perspective (regarding all religions as strange) Mormons are no different.

[Mentalist]

Xander;250301 said:

You're Greek Orthodox Kud? My father (he grew up in Greece) was Greek Orthodox until he married my mother here in America...she is Catholic...and the way he says it...and he doesn't talk about it much...he got kicked out of the church for marrying my mom.

Is this a possibility or is my dad not telling me something?

Nope... Greek CATHOLIC---its one of the names for it (also used are "Ukrainian Catholic chuch", or "Uniate")
Not to go on a long history lecture, but essentially as a resu.t of the Union of Brest, part of the Orthodox church accepted the supremacy of the Pope, but kept the Orthodox (or Greek, as it was referred to back then), rite.

As such, we are orthodox in all, but name (still celebrate Xmass in January and all that). And our service in Ukrainiam, rather than Church Slavonic as in the Orthodox tradition, lol

[Optimus Prime]

Ah...well sorry for the mix up

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

kud13;250895 said:

Nope... Greek CATHOLIC---its one of the names for it (also used are "Ukrainian Catholic chuch", or "Uniate")
Not to go on a long history lecture, but essentially as a resu.t of the Union of Brest, part of the Orthodox church accepted the supremacy of the Pope, but kept the Orthodox (or Greek, as it was referred to back then), rite.

As such, we are orthodox in all, but name (still celebrate Xmass in January and all that). And our service in Ukrainiam, rather than Church Slavonic as in the Orthodox tradition, lol

I did not know about this. Thanks for learning me!

[Skywalker]

Xander;250871 said:

I'm just saying from my perspective (regarding all religions as strange) Mormons are no different.

I agree with Xander. I think the only thing that got the CotLDS more of a bad rep than other religions/ denominations was that Joseph Smith's epiphany and religious experience happened in a modern era, and he claimed to revise everyone's understanding of the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic God, and his son, Jesus Christ.

I look at Joseph Smith doing the same thing that Mohammed did in Arabia a milennium and a half ago. Unfortunately (for him) he did it after the advent of science and the establishment of Christian hegemony in the western world.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Another problem is they make statements that can be proven absolutely to be true. Native americans are not a lost tribe of israel, genetic testing has proven this. Nor are they, or any non-whites, dark skinned because God stained them for being sinners. JOseph Smith "translated" Egyptian hyroglyphics using the power of God before anyone else had the ability to do so, so there was no way to know if he was correct or not. Now that we have cracked the code of hyroglyphics, we know he was not in any way accurate. This is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of fact. He was lying.
MOrmonism makes many innacurate claims like this. Another is that Native Americans had wheels and horses before the "discovery" of America. No they didn't. Sorry.

NOt that I think other religions are always right, but they tend to make statements that can't be as easily dispoved by science and history. THis goes back to the idea that it's harder to buy what they're saying, because it all happened so recently.

How about the other religion that Joseph Smith started? The one where he almost got arrested (or maybe did get arrested) for fraud? I feel this is relevant to the discussion.

[James Hetfield]

The Mormon church does not state that all Native Americans are decended from Israel. According to their scripture, people were already on the American continent when they arived, and many wars ensued which probably killed off most of the Israelites. Mixed breeding can do all kind of things to genetics.

Just my two cents.

[Skywalker]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;251524 said:

Another problem is they make statements that can be proven absolutely to be true.

Come now... that is applicable to any and all religions. The whole point of faith is to make statements and believe in them without evidence. A religion that bases all its statements on facts/ proven and provable suppositions would be... er... science.

Judaism/ Christianity/ Islam/ Hinduism/ Zoroastrianism/ Wicca/ (any other here) all make some pretty ridiculous claims that can be disproved.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

True enough. Since the things they are talking about happened so recently though, it seems less credible.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Smith was convicted of fraud in New York four years before he founded his religion.

[Cold Iron]

It makes it hard to view something as legitimate when it's claims of legitimacy are verifiably false. However, any movement that gains a following must provide something that it's followers like, which is usually very different from these claims.

[cjd262e]

Dolorous, Joseph Smith was like 19 when he founded the church. He wasn't convicted of anything at 15 I'm sure.

I live in Utah so I have spent a great deal of time reading about the Mormon religion and around 80% of all my friends are active Mormons. Joseph Smith was constantly brought up on charges of fraud, but as far as I've ever heard, all of them pertained to his writing of the Book of Mormon and claiming to be a prophet. I don't think he was ever actually convicted of anything.

Also, Raymond, the hyroglyphics argument actually relates to a supposed translation in a lost book of Abraham. However, everything I have read is more opinion that it is incorrect than actual fact like you said, I.E. it's argued that it isn't correct, but can't 100% be disproved. James makes the point that is pretty popular around here to refute the genetics argument.

Probably the point on the horses is the point that really stands out. Mormon scholars say the Book of Mormon actually takes place more in South America than North America, ala Aztecs and Incas. There is absolutely zero evidence that horses existed in the Americas before the Spaniards and Cortez. Although being a history major it is interesting that the Aztecs allowed Cortez around because they believed him to be the return of the "Great White God." Mormons say Christ appeared in the Americas after Resurrection and told the people that he would return again.

If you look at it from the outside, there are a lot of religious beliefs that seem strange. The bread and wine actually turning into Christ's body and blood at communion is normal for a Catholic, but really strange from the outside. All I know is that the Mormons appear to be very good people who care about their families, try to do the right thing by others, and help out whenever they can. I just wish they'd go a little easier on the liquor laws around here.

[Mentalist]

cjd262e;252309 said:

Probably the point on the horses is the point that really stands out. Mormon scholars say the Book of Mormon actually takes place more in South America than North America, ala Aztecs and Incas. There is absolutely zero evidence that horses existed in the Americas before the Spaniards and Cortez. Although being a history major it is interesting that the Aztecs allowed Cortez around because they believed him to be the return of the "Great White God." Mormons say Christ appeared in the Americas after Resurrection and told the people that he would return again.

I don't mean to derail, but this last point has come under heavy criticism from historiographers lately. most proof of the Quetzacoatl hypothesis comes from texts written following the conquest, by Aztecs brought up by Spaniards and show very strong European influences. I can drop a link if you want...
Again, sorry for deraliment...